 pc motivation |
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 May 18 2006, 04:56 AM
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#51
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Beetle Eater  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826  |
Only if they have a SIN. SINless don't get full due process, they get a hearing - perhaps a few years after they've been thrown on an island in another country. |
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May 18 2006, 05:27 AM
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#52
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
No, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they did it before you convict them. You can charge them with only a little suspciion, but you might screw yourself if you charge too soon.
One eyewitness can be enough to convict "beyond reasonable doubt," even if the witness is later impeached. http://www.nacdl.org/CHAMPION/ARTICLES/98jan01.htm |
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May 18 2006, 05:44 AM
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#53
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Guantanamo Bay.
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May 18 2006, 05:56 AM
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#54
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Are you saying that there would be an extraterritorial spot to dump SINless noncitizens or something else altogether? Two words in what looks like it's supposed to be a sentence but doesn't have a verb don't really express your thoughts well.
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May 18 2006, 06:48 AM
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#55
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I believe that he is saying that you need to be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to be imprisioned for a crime but only a suspicion is necessary for the government to hoold you indefinantly without charges.
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May 18 2006, 06:54 AM
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#56
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Ah, but that's (currently) only gfor very specific crimes. With other crimes arresting someone too soon starts the due process clock and means you may have to release them before you've got enough evidence to be able to ask the judge for no bail.
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May 18 2006, 03:15 PM
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#57
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Basically, being SINless in SR is an assumed crime. You get a hearing to contest the SINless status if you convince the Lone Star officer you deserve it (or if you went to the UCAS to specifically say that). But their is no real trial with a jury where they need to disprove your citizenship. Most often you are simply issued a criminal SIN and then released if no active crimes match your DNA, fingerprint or face match. |
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May 18 2006, 06:28 PM
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#58
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Uh... what crimes would those be? If these folks are being held for very specific crimes, why aren't they being charged with any of those very specific crimes? Last time I checked, most of the people at Gitmo were being held there (without charges) for being "enemy combatants," which is not a crime, it's a fact of war. They're being treated as POWs. Except, of course, the US doesn't recognize them as specifically belonging to any nation (because they're fighting for a terrorist group, not under a flag), which means that they don't have any advocates, since the US doesn't recognize them as soldiers of whatever nation they have citizenship in... they're terrorists. So, sitting on a military base without charges being pressed, without the rights of a citizen of this nation or their own, and being held under the auspice of being a prisoner of a war against "terrorism," an abstract concept rather than a concrete nation or border to be secured, meaning that the war can go on indefinitely... yeah, it sounds an awful lot like being SINless is supposed to be, if you end up in jail. |
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May 18 2006, 07:19 PM
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#59
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
They're being held on suspicion of crimes. I don't know why they're not being charged. I know what the media tells me is the reason, but since the different news channels can't seem to agree I ignore them all rather than try and guess which one, if any, has the actual truth.
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May 18 2006, 09:28 PM
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#60
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sure, the work of The Ministry of Love would be much easier if The Ministry of Truth would be more efficient. ;)
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May 18 2006, 09:40 PM
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#61
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
That's not entirely accurate either. A number are being held because they were captured during military actions on battlefields, mostly in Afghanistan. Some were processed, released, and recaptured on other battlefields. Basically they can't be released because they will rejoin combat, the countries they were born in have disowned them, and the country they were captured in doesn't want to deal with them, and the country that captured them really doesn't have legal jurisdiction over them just an treaty obligation to treat Prisoners of War in a certain fashion. Being SINless in SR really is the same case except you have it one step worse, officially you don't even exist so there aren't even self proclaimed human rights groups looking for you or looking after your interests. SO if joe SINless Shadowmage gets caught on Renraku Property there is absolutely nothing to even make Renraku worry about making sure he gets three meals a day (like a POW) or even to prevent Renraku from making an attempt to infuse another person a mage by making serum from his tissue or using him as Hellhound chow. |
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May 19 2006, 06:58 AM
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#62
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
And a number is held and tortured because of social network analysis gone wrong...
..which creates the problem itself, as before, you had someone who didn't care much, and hated with passion afterwards.
For Human rights, your legal status is irrelevant - that's the idea with human rights. ;) The problem is, in the sixth world, such voices carry less influence and organizations don't really care about human rights.
Renraku doesn't even have to worry if it does the same thing to it's own citizens - and will only worry doing it to citizens of other entities because those entities might speak up... not so much for the sake of the citizen itself, though, but mostly because of their image. If it's all nice and covered up... noone will care. BTW, the code of conduct towards PoW constitutes a bit more than mere subsistence. |
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May 19 2006, 07:59 AM
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#63
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Human rights only applies to (meta)humans, hence the name. There are plenty of SINless who aren't metahuman and the burden of proof is on the SINless. If a dog walked into a social security office today and demanded a SSN he wouldn't get very far. |
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May 19 2006, 08:14 AM
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#64
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
If you're SINless you don't exist. Someone not existing (for the system) can't demand anything. |
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May 19 2006, 09:36 AM
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#65
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
People without SIN aren't even classed as stateless, but as citizens on probation. Even if you are stateless, human rights apply... and as they are citizens, they even got civil rights, though to a lesser extent. If SINless disappear, it won't (usually) raise questions as it isn't easily noticed, but that doesn't make it legal. The point is that legality means not much anymore, and having a SIN isn't a real protection, too.
IIRC, that was extended to sentinent beings like sasquatches, too... but for the sake of simplicity, the discussion was about (meta)humans, anyway.
There are very few, in fact, and the idea is a reverse. Thus, the burden of proof lies for the one that wants to deny such rights...
That would be a civil right... |
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May 19 2006, 06:06 PM
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#66
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Last I checked, dogs weren't considered part of civil society... how can they have civil rights?
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May 19 2006, 06:15 PM
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#67
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
They supposedly have "animal rights," which differ depending on who you talk to.
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May 19 2006, 06:32 PM
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#68
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I want to meet someone who feels dogs should get SSNs.
I'm all for it as long as the dogs are willing to pay into social security :P |
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May 19 2006, 06:36 PM
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#69
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I'm sure they would if they had paying jobs. More likely it'd just be another drain on the coffers by a jobless group of citizens.
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May 19 2006, 07:02 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
I don't think my dog should have an ssn, but I think she's certainly smarter and more valuable than the vast majority of people.
She's less of a drain on society than the rich people sucking money out of the treasury and labor out of the poor. In case you can't figure it out, in SR terms I'd be in the ABC camp |
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May 19 2006, 07:17 PM
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#71
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Already Been Chewed? Ewww and ouch
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May 19 2006, 07:34 PM
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#72
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Good question... that pops up every time as soon as some eccentric millionaire bequeaths his entire fortune to his loyal pets. ;) |
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May 19 2006, 09:32 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
Anarchist Black Cross, sorry I shoulda used the plus sign like they do in LA (loose alliances not Los Angeles.) I try to keep my references within game.
When yuou're rich, often your animal friends are usually more loyal (and often smarter) than your your human ones. In SR terms though, sentience does not gaurantee an offer of a sin, it just means that they might consider you. It took an act of congress before the UCAS granted Dunky a sin. And there are very many creatures with sentinence that many nations would never consider granting sins- ghouls, vampires, naga, merrow, shapeshifters (granted the write up on the last two hasn't been printed yet.) |
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May 19 2006, 09:47 PM
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#74
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
As an aside, vampires in Germany legal entities requiring only a permit and a voluntary donation source. Obviously they are forbidden from making more vampires. Also, ghouls can have SINs - your ID is not revoked for becoming infected, and there was at one time a discussion about third generation ghouls and their ability to appear fully human with only a small amount of cosmetic accouterments..
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May 19 2006, 09:55 PM
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#75
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
IIRC, infection with HMVV is subject to registration, too.
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