 3rd edition thoughts on screwing over the players, How we handle Simple Actions |
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 May 16 2006, 12:32 AM
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#1
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383  |
OK, I just have one thought on how to better screw over the players when playing 3rd edition, and I'd like to ask you guys if you think it's a good way of doing things or not.
Do you think it would be a good idea to make people declare 2 simple actions at the same time before they can see the result of their first simple action? So it wouldn't be, "I shoot him with my Predator, I see he went down, so I shoot the next guy." You'd have to make a decision ahead of time whether to shoot twice at the same guy or once at two guys. What would be the point of doing this? 1.) It would make combat a bit more like wargaming since in wargaming you often are required to declare a bunch of actions before seeing how they are resolved. It means you need to be a little bit more conscious about probabilities and such as you play. 2.) It would help crack the unusually flawless efficiency that SR characters sometimes exhibit in the heat of combat. 3.) I imagine it would be a bit more realistic. Using two simple actions with an automatic would be a bit more like double tapping someone, where the two shots are in and of themselves a reflex you train to make extra sure the guy you're targeting is down. 4.) It would also make for more unpredictable and dramatic death since every time someone took a D wound from the first shot but had been targed for two shots he or she could easily be instantly killed by the second shot. As a GM that would give me more freedom to say things like, "$name's head explodes with your second shot spraying brains that look like spaghetti on the back wall" because the individual in question would be dead. Not just having a D wound and subsequently being ignored by everyone. As it stands if people pick and chose their targets with simple actions with super barely D wound inflicting efficiency I have to refrain from verbally gibbing anyone. What do you think? |
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May 16 2006, 12:40 AM
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#2
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I've done it before (back during SR2), but it seemed to encourage grenades and iniative pumping more than anything else.
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May 16 2006, 12:42 AM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I've been toying with this idea. If I were to implement it, and I might (at the very least I think I'm going to start enforcing the fact that airburst grenades explode at the end of the character's pass) I'd probably at least allow them to abort their second action after observing their first.
~J |
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May 16 2006, 12:43 AM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Well, grenades *should* be highly effective. And if we use SR 3 style initiative it would dilute the effect of initiative pumping, wouldn't it?
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May 16 2006, 12:46 AM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 21-October 04 Member No.: 6,779 |
Don't you take penalties for shooting at multiple targets in a pass? We take that to apply to both simple actions in our group, and try to get people to declare both actions in advance so we can calculate all bonuses/penalties etc. This lets people move before or after shooting, but still apply movement penalties to all shots shots, etc.
This makes me think the standard rules make you declare the entire pass, but I don't have a rulebook in front of me to check. We're not the best about enforcing it though ;) |
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May 16 2006, 12:52 AM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Hmm, that's an interesting thought. Have people declare more than just 2 simple actions ahead of time but also specify movement and all these other things. It would definitely add more of a wargaming aspect. I wonder if it would be administratively more difficult to handle or not. |
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May 16 2006, 12:58 AM
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#7
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I knew there was a reason I got an MGL-12 instead of an MGL-6. It's because now I'll have to fire two grenades every pass, just to be on the safe side. :) |
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May 16 2006, 01:03 AM
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#8
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Personally, as a GM, I hate grenades, and try to discourage their use whenever I can. It exacerbates the intiative effect, actually. Tactically it is best to spread damage as fast as possible, because a +1 Target Number makes the enemy about 50% as effective (not to mention the number of combatants that drop out at Light and Moderate Wounds). Thus, you never waste two shots on one target unless you have a moderate skill, in which case you need as many passes as possible to create kills. |
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May 16 2006, 01:16 AM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Well, the thing about grenades and direct fire is that non-launch grenades don't explode till your next pass, so they wouldn't be effective at close range when direct fire is available, right? Unless you're saying your PCs had the init and loosed a whole lot of launch grenades into the enemy. ... I dunno, dude. On the one hand as the GM I can see how you might be a bit annoyed that everyone was punked so quickly by grenades. But on the other hand, if several guys with grenade launchers got the drop on a squad at relatively close range, that squad probably should be pretty horribly savaged from a realism perspective. |
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May 16 2006, 01:25 AM
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#10
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I agree on a realism perspective, grenades pretty much rule the field. Worse, they make horrible defensive weapons from a collateral stand point.
Every time. They "invented" a burst fire grenade launcher in game, as well. |
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May 16 2006, 01:32 AM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
It's a fair point in any case if you don't necessarily want combats to be pretty much one sided one way or the other. I guess it's a question of what you want in your game.
The way I see it if the PCs are going to successfully ambush a squad with grenade launchers they should have an excellent chance of wiping that squad out as that's the power of good planning and tactics. On the other hand, though, the enemies may have air support, artillery support, or just overwhelming numbers and control of the terrain. I think anyone would agree that turnabout is fair play when the squads call in for their artillery support. |
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May 16 2006, 09:29 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Some comments on grenades: a) SR has it backwards. IRL defensive grenades have the larger effective radius b) If you use grenades on the defensive, do so from behind cover. A trench, a bunch of sandbacks etc. c) If you use grenades on the offence, either throw them far enough or be in cover. Around a corner, outside the door etc. d) Grenades come "some assembly required" (pull a security plug, screw in the fuse etc) Just where did the characters learn to do that e) Grenade sump. A hole/bunch of sandbags to kick a grenade into. Thats why you count before throwing one, otherwise it might endsin such a hole f) Wire mesh. Think Blues Brothers here. Works against launch grenades just as well g) Grenades vs. Armor. There is a reason they call the protective vests "Shrapnel Vest" or "Flak Vest". Assume the average grenate is shrapnel, concussion/HE grenades are actually quite rare IRL. h) Grenades are Military only! Assume ATF will investigate lost grenades quite seriously. Evem more so for Launched Grenades. |
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May 16 2006, 09:33 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
But that is Meta-Gaming, using knowledge of the game mechanism to run a character. IRL I don't know damage levels and sucess. I do know that man have done some crazy things after receiving a mortal wound or three (i.e Rodger Young, Moros during the US Philipine Adventure in the early 20th century). Add in body armor and all the SR gadgets and the guy I just shot might not realize he is already dead and just shoot back. Sadly SR's game system does not allow to seperate wounding effect from to-hit roles. |
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May 16 2006, 12:37 PM
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#14
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Actually, most grenades have a J legality code. That's one step down from military only. And, assuming that they don't have anything else on the runner, the penality for possessing a class J item is a simple 10,000 nuyen fine. Grenade launchers, on the other hand, tend to be K. |
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May 16 2006, 01:18 PM
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#15
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
That can effectively be learned in game. It's also part of having high skill levels. Characters who regularly throw 12 dice with Smartlink and all the Vision Mods, learn quickly how hard they have to hit and how fast. If they know from experience that one shot put most people in similar situations into Deadly, then why would they start wasting shots? Plus, SR mechanics are the real world for the characters. Military training and experience would reflect optimising tactics that can easily be matched to the dice. |
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May 16 2006, 03:10 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Makes no sense. The only group to use grenades (except Flashbang) is the Military. So I'd up the legality code. Add in the reluctance of many units to hand them out and they should be rare on the black market. |
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May 16 2006, 03:12 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
I disagree. All the dice tell you is that you hit someone where it potentially hurts. You know nothing about his armor (i.e FormFitting under that coverall) or his bodymods (i.e an Automed). That's something a Smartgun can't tell you, neither can experience. |
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May 16 2006, 03:20 PM
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#18
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
You don't really need to know all that as a PC. The vast majority of NPCs you kill do not have cybermods, nor do they have great need of concealed armor (armor can be spotted with a perception test, and bypassed with a called shot). Besides, if you didn't kill him, then the next PC will - so it's still better to shoot each one once. |
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May 16 2006, 03:55 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
A lot of things should be really rare - like highly trained, heavily armed groups of career criminals running around, as a part of the unofficial warfare between extraterritorial corporations. Besides, what "makes sense" in terms of weapon availability depends completely on the time and the place, and you're basing your assumptions on what goes on in modern day, first world countries. (And even there, grenades are IMO rare because they're just not all that useful in real-life criminal operations, and not because they're controlled effectively - if there was a demand, then in the US, they'd flood in from south of the border, just as drugs do.) Anyway... Ever see footage of an open-air bazaar in, say, Somalia, or some other African country, with MMGs and RPGs ready for sale? Or read about how easy it is for gangs in Eastern Europe to get their hands on black-market ex-Soviet hardware? And that's without any extraterritorial corporations willing to sell to the highest bidder thrown into the mix. |
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May 16 2006, 05:56 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'd say modern first world countries are a better comparison to 2060s first world countries than 3rd world shitholes are. I imagine there aren't any paramilitary groups lugging around heavy weaponry in plain sight through downtown Seattle in the SR world. Some parts of Eastern Europe might be a closer match, because the SR North America has gone through similar societal breakdown. This would allow older hardware, including RPGs and grenades, to be readily available on the black market. But getting caught with that shit would still have consequences far worse than a 10,000 nuyen fine. |
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May 16 2006, 06:12 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
smoke gernades are fairly common. you can find em at some paintball games. flashbang, the swat team uses those. still fairly common stuff.
when you get into explosive gernades... i would agree that the regular manufactured type are a bit hard to get. but a homemade gernade is evry possible. I can see some guy with the skills putting together explosives with short timed fuses, and selling them as gernades. duct tape and nails, makes for some good shrapnel. best thing to remember, SR has many factors making weapons more availibe than in the real world. |
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May 16 2006, 06:42 PM
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#22
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
By canon, wearing a submachine gun while walking down the street in Vegas will not get you a second look by law enforcement. I think we can assume grenades aren't too high on the priority list, especially considering their tiny threat radii (must have been a redesign).
~J |
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May 16 2006, 06:45 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
On the other hand, carrying a walking stick will get you fined.
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May 16 2006, 07:02 PM
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#24
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The cops don't care about guns, but Reach plus Friends in Melee, now that's something to be afraid of.
~J |
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May 16 2006, 07:11 PM
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#25
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
For what it's worth, SR4 requires actions to be declared before resolving any of them. It works well for my group (and makes the gameplay a little smoother).
If you tend to have players watch for people going down, then swapping to the next target, there's an easy fix if you don't want to do it the "declare - resolve" way... when the NPC gets hit, he goes down. Down, however, does not always mean dead, or even out of the fight, and PCs sometimes learn that lesson when they catch a shotgun blast in the flank. |
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