Can I counterspell from Astral Space? Options

[fool]

After posting my last counterspelling question, I reread the counterspelling rules. I didn't see anywhere that you have to be on the same plane in order to do counter spelling, maybe I missed it.
Makes the telecommuting mage a real threat. Throw in the fact that it doesn't say you can't summon in astral space, you can call up a spirit of man to cast spells in the physical no problem.
Personally I hate telelcommuting characters whether they're mages, hackers or riggers or whatever.

[Kanada Ten]

Even if you couldn't whip up a Spirit, you can always bring it along.

However, we could be rule hardliners and say that you can only protect those you can see with your eyes, not Assense with your mind. I don't think that's a good ruling, personally.

[Shrike30]

I'd be inclined to say yes, unfortunately.

Don't like telecommuting mages? I'm waiting on Street Magic to see how they handle Astral Tracking and the like. Nothing like going out on a run on the Astral, watching it go south in a big way, then having the telecommuting mage get back to his body and discovering that the enemy sent a spirit to follow his astral link back to the body and eat it...

Decent setup for a solo run, though... the Astral Quest to keep your spirit alive long enough that your teammates can have a new body cloned. Not exactly RAW in this version or the last, but more entertaining than a flat-out PK.

[emo samurai]

Or you could have a shedim possess it.

[Jaid]

dunno if you'd want to summon while astral. call a pre-summoned spirit, sure, but iirc all damage taken while astral is effectively physical.

that also means that if anyone around can target you with, say, a stunbolt, you'd best start really worrying...

[Shrike30]

I believe that was a 3rd ed thing meant to prevent telecommuting, while 4th ed simply said "you can only cast at targets on the same plane as you."

[Jaid]

no, in SR3 you couldn't cast across planes either (that is, you had to be astrally present to do anything on the astral, and physically present to do anything on the physical).

you may be right about SR4 not giving you phyiscal damage whenever you take stun in astral though... not sure on that...

[Cang]

How exactly would you deal with a shedim who has taken your meat body? Would you bannish it or fight it astrally or lure it out with candy? :wobble:

[James McMurray]

Banishing or fighting would work. The candy thing is a GM call. :)

[Edward]

Candy would have to be in the form of a more attractive host, difficult to find.

edward

[Game2BHappy]

Sorry for digging up such an old thread, but this same scenario came up in our game tonight...

Astrally projecting mage wanted to provide counterspelling to mundane targets that he had assensed. The SR1/2/3 instincts in us said "no way", but he had us look through the rules and we didn't see anything that says he can't. Afterward we checked the errata, FAQ, core book, & street magic and didn't see anything that would prevent him from doing so.

Again, maybe we were just playing it wrong all this time, but is that really the case? Anyone find a rule that says you can't provide counterspelling dice from astral to the physical plane?

[Fikealox]

My interpretation of the right-hand column of fluff on p.176 of SR4A is that you can only counter spells on your own plane. "To cast a spell, a magician channels mana through herself and transmits it on a specific frequency ... All of this occurs on the same plane--physical or astral--as the magician and the target ... The metaphor continues with counterspelling, which equates to "jamming" the mana field, disrupting all frequencies within an area of effect ...' It's not definitive, and YMMV, of course.

This post has been edited by Fikealox: Sep 24 2010, 04:59 AM

[Karoline]

but he had us look through the rules and we didn't see anything that says he can't.

The rules also don't say that you can't fly, or make people explode by looking at them (no magic involved), or gain 500 karma for petting a kitten. Does that mean that the rules say that you can do these things?

There is no rule specifically stating yes or no on counterspelling on the physical from the astral, but all other magic operates on a 'each plane is its own thing' sort of rule. Basically if you are on the physical, you can't do a darn thing on the astral, and if you are on the astral, you can't do a darn thing on the physical (unless of course you are on both). I don't see why counterspelling would be an exception from this basic rule of magic.

[Fenloh]

As I see it, spells, active Foci, dual Creatures are all actively present in the astral Space. As soon as the are present there you can cast or counterspell them.

You can not cast on someone on a different plane, or affect the other planes presence.

Which means, that you are able to counterspell from Astral Space, as long as you can see the Auras of the ones you protect, since the Spell you protect them from is present in Astral Space. Even if it is an indirect Damage Spell like Flamethrower, because it is still a magical Spell, even if the damage is purely mundane.

Fenloh

[CeeJay]

Which means, that you are able to counterspell from Astral Space, as long as you can see the Auras of the ones you protect, since the Spell you protect them from is present in Astral Space. Even if it is an indirect Damage Spell like Flamethrower, because it is still a magical Spell, even if the damage is purely mundane.

Do you have a quote for that? Because I looked for exactly that information and could find nothing in SR4...

So, at the moment I would say, that spells are not dual natured and are only present on the plane they are cast on. Therefore counterspelling from the astral on spells cast on the mundane plane should not be possible.

-CJ

[Fikealox]

As I see it, spells, active Foci, dual Creatures are all actively present in the astral Space. As soon as the are present there you can cast or counterspell them.

Actually, per the faq, spells (like living beings) have an aura, not an astral presence.

[Aerospider]

The rules also don't say that you can't fly, or make people explode by looking at them (no magic involved), or gain 500 karma for petting a kitten. Does that mean that the rules say that you can do these things?

Not a very sound argument. You can fly and it does say when you can (aircraft, spells, spirits, skill). Exploding people with a look is not something that's possible in RL and it's not mentioned anywhere in RAW so there's no reason to believe it's possible, but counterspelling by contrast IS possible in RAW. You can gain 500 karma for petting a kitten, it just takes a very special situation and a VERY special GM.

The rules state counterspelling is possible and describes the criteria, so unless one can find sufficient RAW to logically deduce that counterspelling across planes contradicts the criteria then it should be assumed possible.

There is no rule specifically stating yes or no on counterspelling on the physical from the astral, but all other magic operates on a 'each plane is its own thing' sort of rule. Basically if you are on the physical, you can't do a darn thing on the astral, and if you are on the astral, you can't do a darn thing on the physical (unless of course you are on both). I don't see why counterspelling would be an exception from this basic rule of magic.

I quite agree.

[Aerospider]

As I see it, spells, active Foci, dual Creatures are all actively present in the astral Space. As soon as the are present there you can cast or counterspell them.

You can not cast on someone on a different plane, or affect the other planes presence.

Which means, that you are able to counterspell from Astral Space, as long as you can see the Auras of the ones you protect, since the Spell you protect them from is present in Astral Space. Even if it is an indirect Damage Spell like Flamethrower, because it is still a magical Spell, even if the damage is purely mundane.

Fenloh

No, spells cast on the physical plane don't have an astral presence (and you don't need the FAQ to learn this). This is a change from previous editions and yet another example of the devs dishing out the retcon.

[Game2BHappy]

Thanks for the direction here. After seeing this I read over the Counterspelling again and noticed that it does require "line of sight". Through inference, if we use the definition of "line of sight" from the spellcasting section, the order of the universe falls back together again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Spellcasting
Step 3: Choosing the Target
"Under the basic Shadowrun rules, such a link requires line of sight or touch."
...
"A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can
only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras
of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be
targeted)."

I appreciate the help!

[Medicineman]

I think that Plane separation(Ebenentrennung ??) ist still working ,so you can't effect (neither cast a Spell nor Counterspell) from the Astral to the Mundane space.
And Afaik the Magic comes from the Metaplanes ,permeates the Astral to finally end in the Target
so a Spell cast on the Astra space stays in Astral space and one cast on the physical/Mundane stays there as well.No Interference between the Spaces.
Spells coming from the Astral was (IIRC) SR2 where Spells could be fought like living beings

He who dances on many Spaces
Medicineman

[Fenloh]

I must admit, that Medicineman is correct. In SR4 Spells are not dual Natured, but e.g. active Foci are Dual natured. I re read it and i am afraid i remebered it incorrectly.

Spells are never dualnatured,
because they are created through mana, and
mana permeates both planes.

Counterspelling also allows a magician to dispel a sustained or quickened
spell, canceling its effect. The character must be on the same
plane, must be able to perceive the spell she is targeting, and must use
a Complex Action.

(Page 185, Dispelling sustained spells)

Fenloh

This post has been edited by Fenloh: Sep 24 2010, 05:05 PM

[jimbo]

I'm repeating myself from another Counterspelling thread several months back, but here goes:

1) According to Street Magic under spell design, it clearly states that assensing fulfills LOS.

2) Magic frequently "crosses planes". A Mage astrally perceiving can cast mana spells at astral targets. An astrally projecting mage can blast a physical target on the physical plane if said target is dual-natured or astrally perceiving.

3) Under Counterspelling, the rules for same plane requirement are ONLY found in the Dispelling Sustained Spells subsection. If that limitation was intended to apply to the Spell Defense rules, it would have been put in that subsection or in the general paragraphs regarding Counterspelling before either of those two subsections.

LOS + free action declared to protect others=Counterspelling for Spell Defense.

[Karoline]

I'm repeating myself from another Counterspelling thread several months back, but here goes:

1) According to Street Magic under spell design, it clearly states that assensing fulfills LOS.

Yes, but this doesn't allow a mage to break the seperation of planes rules.

2) Magic frequently "crosses planes". A Mage astrally perceiving can cast mana spells at astral targets. An astrally projecting mage can blast a physical target on the physical plane if said target is dual-natured or astrally perceiving.

Magic does not cross planes in either of these cases. The astrally perceiving mage exists on both planes, and so casts the astral spell on the astral plane. The fact that the mage is also active on the physical plane has no relevance to anything. Similarly when a mage hits a duel natured thing from the astral, it has no physical component. They are blasting the astral form of the thing, not the physical.

3) Under Counterspelling, the rules for same plane requirement are ONLY found in the Dispelling Sustained Spells subsection. If that limitation was intended to apply to the Spell Defense rules, it would have been put in that subsection or in the general paragraphs regarding Counterspelling before either of those two subsections.

And yet it points out fairly clearly that counterspelling can't interact with spells on another plane, just like how all other magic. I don't see why counterspelling should have a special exemption from this rule just because you can't find anything that says "Counterspelling follows the normal rules for magic."

LOS + free action declared to protect others=Counterspelling for Spell Defense.

Of course, since assensing is a simple action, and you would have to constantly assense each of your teammates to keep up the counterspelling, you'd only be able to cover two people, and you'd be spending all your actions just keeping it maintained.

[jimbo]

[quote name='Karoline']
Yes, but this doesn't allow a mage to break the seperation of planes rules. There are no separation of planes rules, just distinct rules for a variety of situations like firing from astral to physical.

Magic does not cross planes in either of these cases. The astrally perceiving mage exists on both planes, NO, the mage does NOT exist on both planes, he is ON the PHYSICAL and only PERCEIVING the astral

and so casts the astral spell on the astral plane. The fact that the mage is also active on the physical plane has no relevance to anything. Similarly when a mage hits a duel natured thing from the astral, it has no physical component. They are blasting the astral form of the thing, not the physical.

And yet it points out fairly clearly that counterspelling can't interact with spells on another plane, just like how all other magic. I don't see why counterspelling should have a special exemption from this rule just because you can't find anything that says "Counterspelling follows the normal rules for magic." Counterspelling doesn't have a special exemption anymore than the host of rules that create exemptions that I pointed out. Spell Defense requires LOS (and a free action if appropriate). Dispelling requires LOS, a Complex Action, and same plane as specified by the statement stating ON the same plane, not ACTIVE on the same plane.

Of course, since assensing is a simple action, and you would have to constantly assense each of your teammates to keep up the counterspelling, you'd only be able to cover two people, and you'd be spending all your actions just keeping it maintained. It is a simple action to switch to astral perception. Assensing in use is just perception for the astral and doesn't require an action anymore than physical beings with guns don't need to burn actions using Perception to shoot someone.

[Karoline]

The astrally perceiving mage exists on both planes, NO, the mage does NOT exist on both planes, he is ON the PHYSICAL and only PERCEIVING the astral

A
character using astral perception
is considered dual natured, active on
both the physical and astral planes simultaneously

Sorry, they do in fact exist on both planes. This is why they can be targeted from the astral.

Counterspelling doesn't have a special exemption anymore than the host of rules that create exemptions that I pointed out. Spell Defense requires LOS (and a free action if appropriate). Dispelling requires LOS, a Complex Action, and same plane as specified by the statement stating ON the same plane, not ACTIVE on the same plane.

None of the rules you pointed out are exemptions. They all follow the separation of planes just fine.

Of course, since assensing is a simple action, and you would have to constantly assense each of your teammates to keep up the counterspelling, you'd only be able to cover two people, and you'd be spending all your actions just keeping it maintained. It is a simple action to switch to astral perception. Assensing in use is just perception for the astral and doesn't require an action anymore than physical beings with guns don't need to burn actions using Perception to shoot someone.

If you follow the rule in the way you are suggesting, then you would also be able to cast a spell at a physical target from the astral. That part is not an inclusive set of rules for spell use, it simply adds a few extra things to the rules that already exist (Such as a perception or assensing check possibly being required to establish LoS).

The comparison with shooting a gun is a bad one, since the rules for guns are entirely different from the rules for magic. You can fire a gun at someone you can't see at all for example.