Levitate and mind probe, help me nerf them, they seem too powerful for my magiician Options

[Slamm-O]

i am gming a game using sr3 and our group has been playing for years with some bug intermissions and i gm about half the time. In our current game the magician player has taken mind probe and levitate and it seems to me (and others) that these spells have too much utility for the shaman player.

first mind probe, i always figured you needed to touch the target and they would get the feeling of being 'mind raped', however both of those ended up being incorrect, allowing our shaman to just casually probe corp. executives and such for info as they walk from point a to b and he waits down the street with his binocs. The FAQ says that as for the victim sensing it gms can have them take the ame tet as feeling an astral being, which is helpful. But my big issue with the spell is how information do you get? i have told the player that he can ask for one piece of informationfor each success, but he feels that for a moment he 'experiences' the targets mind, becoming one with it so he should be able to get whatecer he wants. How do you deal with this spell in your games?

Levitate is looking like its even worse, the big problem being that the magic user can levitate himself, 1-2 friends (with them hanging on and the spell being +1 for every 150 kilos) to anyplace in space (practically) at a speed comparable to running as long as he sustains the spell. It seems like the height or distance that things can be levitated should be nerfed, especially to keep tha mage from using it as a flight spell, and takinga buddy along with him. Its made things like walls and breaking into high rise offices a cinch for the team and all while rendering cool stuff like grappling hooks and ultra lights moot. I will be stepping up things like watcher protection to stop them exploiting this but still, is this really the way the spell should be used? any sr3r ruling on this?

p.s. last note is on watchers, can projecting mages elude them? say one is set to watch the roof a building, are any stealth or perception tests made or will he see you approaching right away? can you kill him in one fell swoop w/o alerting his conjurer?


thank you for any help, i rally would like to rope in these spells to put their power level more in line with what sr magic has always seemed to us, not the end all be all of like DnD magic, but more of a nice toolbox, i mean it seems cheap if some spells make the magic user render the rest of the teams skills moot.

[Wounded Ronin]

I think a lot of people on this board discussed mind control spells before and many people, myself included, agreed that they're pretty damn powerful.

I would say that the easiest way to address this would just be to massively increase the drain code on those spells. That way a PC magician could use them if he or she really wanted to but it would be a huge committment of resources since taking some drain would be inevitable.

The more cannon correct but harder way would be to say that turnabout is fair play and have enemy magicians use mind control and mind probe spells on the PCs all the time. Think about how nasty that would be.

[Kanada Ten]

On Mind Probe, I generally give them a number of questions and depth based on successes and force. You can use the detection table as a pretty good guide to this. Also, corporations have the ability to really limit the visibility of their employees.

I limit Combat Pool while under Levitate (and with others hanging off, I'd eliminate it). Use a Masked Ward once an a while along with increased astral patrolling, and don't forget critters like the Merlin Hawk.

Stealth tests against Astral Patrolling.

[Glyph]

For mind probe, the SR2 flavor text story pretty explicitly depicts it as something the target is aware of - SR4 explicitly states this. So SR3 may not say it outright, but if you were aware of it in the previous edition, and are aware of it in the next edition, I would say you should be aware of it in SR3.

The rules are also explicit about letting you gain one piece of information at a time, with your successes limiting how deep you can probe. So what your player "feels" he should be able to get is a moot point. You don't really need to nerf the spell - you merely need to run it according to canon, instead of as an undetectable know-everything spell.


Levitate is not that big a deal. Being able to fly over a wall still doesn't protect them against sensor detection, and flying targets tend to both be exposed and draw fire. Remember that the awakening is old news, and security should routinely deal with things like levitating or invisible intruders.

Are they floating over a wall? They are likely to still trigger an alarm and/or get shot at. Are they floating up to a high-rise window? Their B&E specialist will probably find it awkward trying to disable alarms and cut through a window while clinging to the mage. Not to mention that their entire team is exposed, and that they are all one dispelling away from a too-speedy trip to the ground. Truthfully, the best use of the spell would be to get the stealthy person over an obstacle, then have that person open the gate for the rest of them. Plopping them all over the wall, machine-gun wielding troll and all, will get them past one obstacle at the cost of making the whole team more vulnerable to detection.

If you still need to nerf it, then start considering how one person will feel if they are being lifted up while two or more heavy people are clinging to them. Imagine someone hoisting you up a line while a linebacker has his arms wrapped around your shoulders, then imagine how much worse it might be for a puny mage with a troll grasping him. If you're feeling really evil, you could have the mage make a concentration check when they're halfway up.

[Wounded Ronin]

That's a good point about levitiate...about drawing fire, I mean. People who play a lot of first person shooter games realize that while it may initially seem tempting to run up to the highest spot on the map and be able to shoot at everyone it's also the person at the highest spot on the map who is most likely to be seen and shot at by everyone at once. If you're on the ground usually only a certain amount of the people on the ground will be able to see you because of buildings and cover so you are almost always shot at less than the guy up top is who everyone can easily see.

One time in a SR game a mage tried to escape from an approaching patrol by levitating straight up. However, although this made the people directly beneath her not notice the soldiers who were futher away all took aim at this person who suddenly had shot up high into the sky. An entire squad, having no other visible target on the ground, fired on the mage and inflicted a D wound. The mage went unconscious, fell down that same height, and bounced.

[James McMurray]

Alarms on the inside of upper floor windows will pretty much shut down their abiility to easily fly up and in. For roof entrances you put more security then you would put on the front door because the inconvenince of security is less with the less used doors.

[hyzmarca]

I suddenly have this image in my head of an ork and a large troll hanging onto a flying albino gnome. At some point they have a conversation that goes something like this -

*Beep* *Beep* Beeep*

Gnome: What's that?

Ork: Its my radar detector. We're being painted by a SAM.

Troll: A SAM!! A SAM!!!! DO SOMETHING!!

Ork: Quick, drop your chaff!!! DROP YOUR CHAFF!!!!

Troll: I didn't bring the chaff. YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BRING THE CHAFF!!! OH MY GOD!!! OH MY GOD!!!

Ork: OH MY GOD!!!! OH MY GOD!!!!

- Both Ork and troll release their grip on the gnome. They make big gooy smears where they land. -

-The gnome wets himself and there is a dramatic pause before he becomes not so chunky salsa-

[Kanada Ten]

The secret is to cast levitate on a camouflage carpet...

[James McMurray]

Don't you mean the giant ruthenium polymer box with eye holes?

[Bodak]

[eidolon]

[Laser]

[Kyoto Kid]

...In my book...

...Mind Probe is the Campaign Killer.

...Control thoughts makes NPCs a pain in the butt for the GM.

...Levitate + Invisibility, that is the only one that I have successfully dealt with (as has been put forth in earlier this thread) with just beefing up mundane & magical security. These spells may spoof normal sensors but throw in Scent and Pheromone scanners, or Critters (especially paranormals) and watch the expression on the runners' faces when the lead (or spells) start flying their way as they are caught in mid air.

Above all, doors/windows locked with mechanical locks (with appropriate sensors attached along with microwire in the glass which when broken sets off the alarm) are the simplest ways to alert security and slow down a break in. Yeah the mage may have Magic Fingers, but who ever takes Lock Picking skill?

...well my character Margo Grande had it...but she was a self styled Laura Croft/Indiana Jones wannabe.

[James McMurray]

Mind Control in my group is one of the things that are on the Cold War list. If it gets used by the players it will get used on the players. Since one of the worst things my players like to experience is having their control of their character removed it doesn't happen often. One of our current characters has used it once. He ended up in jail and the guy made a new character rather than waitt he sentence out.

[Laser]

[hobgoblin]

last time i checked, mind probe was a touch spell. so its not like some caster can look down on a crowd and mind probe each person there from the top of a building.

[Kyoto Kid]

[stevebugge]

[eidolon]

[Jagermech]

So, easy way to tone down Mind Probe would be to turn it back to a touch based spell, skin to skin contact only.

[Taran]

I did that in my game, and have been pleased with the results.

[Crusher Bob]

If I remember right, in SR2 with was touch range and something like (F/2)+2D which made it much more balanced

[hobgoblin]

ye flippin gods. what genius made it a "range of sense" spell?!

ugh, forget it. in my games its touch and touch only!

[mmu1]

[Kagetenshi]

Sure, plenty of them—but unless I'm mistaken, they've all been sending things, not reading our minds.

Or if you mean whatsisname, clownguy, Detect Truth is not so limited.

~J