Rape Prevention, Keep it civil, folks Options

[mfb]

it will be a very cold day in a normally warm locale before i'm convinced that lying is the answer to any societal issue.

[Kanada Ten]

It's not really lying. Society teaches people to behave a certain way. We need to teach society to teach people differently. Calling these people stupid has never been shown effective as a teaching tool in that sense.

[e] Instead, we need to say: It's pretty sad, but no one should go to the bar alone, and should usually bring two friends along. The buddy system we were taught as children is really effective up to a point. Also, casual sex is very dangerous, having a higher incident of rape and STDs than most dating, so we should all really discourage that. You're not at fault (note the precise word) for the rape, but it is really important that we encourage rape victims to report the crime as soon as possible. If you were raped, even by a family member, you need to report an authority because the rapist needs to be stopped - whether to receive treatment or whatever. Tolerating rape is very dangerous and can lead the rapist to believe you consented.

This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: May 20 2006, 03:39 AM

[mfb]

it's very much lying. it's lying about the nature of the world. am i going to grab a rape victim and call him or her stupid? no, that's not going to help the situation in either the long or short term. but in general, i think it's just as important--maybe more important--that people understand that their consequences have actions, and that they are not ever safe.

because, honestly? the world is never going to be a nice enough place that people can take their safety for granted.

[Kanada Ten]

Well, I edited. And I'm not going to agree that it's lying. Your "feelings" are not truth. Stupid is an opinion, and society is what is doing a bad job of teaching people cause effect.

[mfb]

i'm not advocating printing anti-rape brochures that read "DON'T BE A STUPID BINT" or anything. call it "dangerous" instead of "stupid", since it's stupid because it's dangerous. don't be insulting about it. but for chrissake, understand that the only person responsible for your safety is you.

[hyzmarca]

[Kanada Ten]

[mfb]

"aardvark means no".

[Kanada Ten]

Hum, I wonder if "Fire!" would work better? That's what you're supposed to yell in abduction and rape to draw people...

Fire means no? Meh, too many other connotations to fight, I think.

[hyzmarca]

But "fire means no" doesn't let us have a cute fuzzy mascot.

[Snow_Fox]

Guys, what you are missing, is that you are apologising for "unrest"'s words by adding on to it. Taliknig about teasing naimals etc. That cretin made no such argument. he just said women send out ambiguous signals so rapists are not to blame for what they do. We are back to me with a blade making sure he can't breed.

[Kanada Ten]

[mfb]

that is not quite what he said. he said women send out ambiguous signals, which can confuse men--especially drunk men. that doesn't lessen the guy's guilt if he does something stupid.

[Kanada Ten]

[mfb]

eh. he was talking about blame, not guilt (at least, that's the word he used)--ie, who is responsible. i don't view blame and responsibility as something that you break into pieces and assign to different parties; i think everyone involved is seperately to blame for their seperate parts. a girl who says "no" and acts "yes" is to blame for doing so. the guy who doesn't take "no" for an answer--even a passive, ambiguous "no"--is to blame for raping someone.

[hyzmarca]

Although unrest worded it in a very offensive way I think we can all agree that mistakes can be mde when communication is ambiguous.

I am rememded of an old comic book show called The Antigravity Room. At one point on the show, the host explained why he refered to DC as DC Comics, which is redundant. DC stands for Detective Comics so DC Comics would mean Detective Comics Comics. His justification was that DC also stands for the District of Columbia. He wanted to be clear so that he didn't start a nuclear war by talking about 'the DC launch' and leading Russia or China to believe that United States was launching ICBMs.

Of course, it is highly unlikely that a Canadian comic book show would start a nuclear war, but it does illustrate the point.

Ambiguous communication is why accidental rapes happen. And, quite frankly, that is a problem. Kagatenshi's example of his friend who had an asthma attack during sex makes it clear that accidental rape is quite possible when there is't enough communication. In that case, the problem was that the victim couldn't communicate clearly due to an unexpected medical problem. It certainly couldn't be considered her fault. At the same time, it is rather difficult to find fault with him. He probably should have been more attentive to her needs, but it is hard to say that any of us would have noticed in that situation. If they had anticipated the possibility and worked out a nonverbal safesignal ahead of time it would have provided clear and unambiguous communication.

And that is the point. Unambgious communication is necessary. Acting on ambigous communication is never a good idea and those who commit rape because of ambigious communication are still guilty of a crime. But it does go both ways.


There is also a double standard that needs to be addressed. Intoxication. One of the links that Fangirl gave clearly stated that having sex with someone who is too intoxicated to think rationally is rape. It then goes on to state that being intoxicated is not an excuse for rape. The double standard should be obvious.

If a drunk woman has sex with a man in spite of his protests but he doesn't attempt to fight her off physically then he is a rapist because she was drunk. If the roles are reversed then he is a rapist because being drunk is no excuse. Or, they are both rapists in both situations. If both are intoxicated then the double standard is much more obvious. They should both be rapists in this situations but the drunk female is rarely treated as a perpertrator. Also, even if they both enjoy the sex and are happy about it in the morning they're still both rapists or he is still a rapist at the very least and she is a poor victim with stockholm syndrome. This, of course, goes more to the ability to give informed consent under the law and statutory rape rather than actual rape, but it does support the point. There are grey areas, despite what some people say. It is uncomfortable to think so because of the potential consequences of this fact but denying it won't make it untrue.

The fact that these grey areas exist is why unambiguous communication is so important in both directions. Acting on ambiguous communication is never a good idea. Giving ambiguous communications is never a good idea, either.

[Laser]

At the beginning of his post, unrest indicated that he was engaging in devil's advocacy. Stop holding it against him.

[Cain]

Okay, let's put up the hypothetical to give things some perspective.

The stranger in a dark alley thing, that's flat-out wrong. Unfortunately, that's more or less a myth as well. What's more likely to happen is that a rape happens after you've had a few drinks with your friends. You've been flirting on and off with the person for a while now-- maybe you're naturally flirtatious, maybe you've got a mild interest, or who knows what. You invite everyone other to your house for a few drinks. Eventually, your other friends leave, and you keep having drinks. The other person makes a move, which is gently and playfully rebuffed. After a little while, another move is made, which is still gently rebuffed. The other person looks a little frustrated, so suddenly a serious move is made. You're shocked that this could even be happening-- you might have a gun, but it's safed somewhere, since you've been drinking, and beginner martial arts are all geared at the other guy leaving you some distance. You start saying "No" much more frimly, but the other person isn't listening anymore. Things go downhill from there.

Now, granted that no should mean no.... but at what point could all of this been prevented? Being alone in your apartment with someone you're not 100% about is a pretty good start. While being raped is a bad thing, you do need to take some sensible precautions for your own safety.

What's really frightening is that this is probably one of the more common rape scenarios out there.

[mfb]

a perfect example of why "being alone with a trusted friend" is not safe behavior. that's not to say you should never be alone with a friend. it means you need to be aware of the possible danger there, and be prepared to get yourself out of it if necessary.

[Arethusa]

The stranger in a dark alley thing does happen, but it is vanishingly rare in comparison.

[edit]

I swear to god, mfb, instapost me again and I'm going to rape you.

This post has been edited by Arethusa: May 20 2006, 04:20 AM

[Kanada Ten]

Simsense might really throw a kink in rape prevention. This is a society that will be raised living experiences; any experiences they desire without fear of rejection, humiliation, or any of the normal baggage. What happens when someone isn't used to a partner saying no, and meaning it? I know I mention this often, but dissociation and detachment from simsense is going to be interesting. But, also, physical sex might become less "first encounter sex", while shared simsense sex (cybersex) will proliferate. That does give a lot more control to the participants, since the disconnect command would be a built in safe word.

[Laser]

Instead of disconnect, I think a kick command would be better. That way if the other party crosses the line, THEY are the ones to reap the headache. Puts an entirely new spin on the term getting 'dumped'...

[mfb]

[Kanada Ten]

[Shanshu Freeman]