[X] My Assistant

[Polaris]

Zazen,

I would walk away from the table and never look back. In SR your personal gear is always considered indestructable unless that piece of equipment is specifically targeted with a called shot. This is the price you pay for a generalized damage system.

Doing it any other way is a completely hose job to the players.....especially if you only use it for fetishes and not for things like the amunition that the Street-Sam is carrying too.....

-Polaris

[John Campbell]

[Polaris]

John,

Simple enough.

1. The elemental manipulations are special cases.

2. Even then the description goes out of it's way to say that it may damage the target in various ways with it's secondary effects. It does not say that it does.

Also in the case of fire and acid:

1. It does not keep you from using the hollowed out tooth.

2. If the fetish is worn in the INSIDE of the armor (like I have already suggested), then there will be no damage. [Not exposed to the acid and it takes oxygen to make something burn.]

3. This is clearly a hose job to punish a character that has items the DM doesn't like....that is especially true if the secondary effects were directed at fetishes rather than weapons and other gear.


Finally, I point out that elemental manips are exceedingly *rare* spells against most living targets (like runners). I find that elemental manips are used almost exclusively against vehicals or other devices.

Why? Because against people, elemental manips suck (at least when compared with power bolt or mana bolt). I could go into detail why, but that isn't the point now is it?

-Polaris

[mfb]

they've got their uses, stable TN being one of them--against an unknown target, especially one that's obviously a significant threat ('named characters' as opposed to 'goons', to put it in Feng Shui terms), i'm not sure i'd want to risk my first spell splashing against his unexpected 6 will. once i've tagged him with an L or M to slow him down, or if i've got him surprised, then combat spells become the shizzle with the fizzle.

[Polaris]

Mfb,

The problem even then is that a manaspell (like a manabolt) is still almost always better.

1. Elemental Manips do indeed have a stable target number. Unfortunately, they have a very bad drain code. That means that if you toss a moderate fireball, you will have to absorb deadly drain at +1 drain code to boot.

That alone makes elemental manips subpar at best.

2. They use sorcery as a ranged combat skill. That ladies and gentlemen means that the target can dodge and avoid damage. Even worse it means you can not use spell pool to help you but must use combat pool instead....which negates one of the primary advantages of being a mage (i.e. you only need combat pool to dodge yourself).

3. The secondary effects are unlikely to harm fetishes anyway. Fetishes can be made from the same things that foci can and there is no rule that says that foci can not be made from any normal object....even manufactored objects such as plastics (for example).

That means that your base object resistance for any focus (or armor/weapons for that matter) will be 8-10. Futhermore, unless the mage is totally insane, you will see a base damage code of serious at worst (see my prior point about drain). That will add two to the base object resistance. If it is an elemental area effect spell, then you will see moderate pretty much at worst and that adds four to the object resistance.

Considering that you have to beat the object resistance with 2d6, that means you will pretty much never affect foci or fetishes.

-Polaris

[Fortune]

[Polaris]

Fortune,

Edit: Good catch, I just looked it up and stand corrected. You can in fact add spell pool to elemental manips.

That said it ought to be disallowed. Why? Because according to the referenced rule, you can also (by implication) also add combat pool as well. Being able to add *both* combat pool and spell pool to a spell is broken....even with the other disadvantages that elemental manips have. [I will definately remember this though for my mage ;) ]

That said, it doesn't diminish my point vis a vis fetishes at all. They are virtually impossible to hurt with the secondary effects regardless if the Mage has any sense at all.

-Polaris

[Fortune]

There is no problem with adding dice from more than one Pool to a test. You still have to abide by the general rule for all Pools in regards to the total number of dice not exceeding the skill involved. I have asked Rob Boyle this specific question in the past, and that was his response.

[BitBasher]

Fortune, that's on the FAQ now too. All pools combined can not add any more dice total than the base skill.

[Polaris]

Guys,

Thanks for the clarification. It was my understanding that the limit on pool dice applied per pool. Alight then, all that simply does is negate my second reason why elemental manip spells are poor choices against a living opponent. That said, the rest of my points stand I think.

-Polaris

[RedmondLarry]

I've never had a GM who suggested Combat Pool could be added to the casting of a manipulation spell. The book (SR3 p. 183) implies that the caster may add Spell Pool, and says nothing about Combat Pool. I think its a misinterpretation of the rules to apply Combat Pool to the casting of Manipulation Spells.

After any eligible magician has had their chance to roll Spell Defense, the Target of the manipulation spell receives it like a ranged combat attack. The Target may use Combat Pool in his/her Dodge Test and his/her Damage Resistance Test.

[Polaris]

OurTeam,

The implication is somewhat subtle but it is there. Under elemental manipulations, it specifices that the sorcery skill is treated as a ranged combat skill and further references you to page 109 (at least in my book) for those rules. Under those referenced rules, you can indeed add combat pool to your ranged attack skill.

However, if the total pool dice can not exceed your skill, that is less of a problem.

-Polaris

[Glyph]

Damaging manipulation spells have a higher Drain than combat spells, and tend to be less effective. However, like any other part of a mage's arsenal, they have their uses. They have elemental secondary effects, they can hit visually hidden opponents, they must be staged down (by comparison, if you cast a deadly manabolt and get 5 successes, and so does your Target, nothing happens), and they have a set TN of 4 - which is nice when you're facing that albino gnome. ;)

[Polaris]

Glyph,

I have actually found that you are more likely to take out the opposition with a power-bolt or mana-bolt than you are with an elemental manipulation.

Why? Because the target has to make a resistance check against the force of your spell and nothing (except astral barriers and shielding) acts to reduce this target number. That means if you are throwing that mojo at force 6 (or force 8 ), that target is highly unlikely to get more than one or two successes....even the abino gnome is unlikely to do so.

*THAT* in turn means that a deadly manabolt or powerbolt will usually suceed at least one time in two (against mages) and often 95% of the time or more against mundane targets.

OTOH, an elemental manipulation spell can be reduced by armor and the target can dodge. Dodging of course has a target number of 4 (which is much lower than the force of the spell usually). In addition, the target gets an additional resistance check and armor does help (half impact in fact) against it.

Thus a force 6 fire-bolt against a mage with an armor spell of 6 (not so unusual) and two points of normal impact armor will take 4 off the target number to resist with body....after dodging.

This is almost always a TN of 2 which means the spell is pretty damned ineffective.

Elemental Manips have their place....especially against Vehicals which can not be targeted by mana spells and are highly resistant to Physical combat spells. However against enemy personelle, they suck.

-Polaris

[Kagetenshi]

So you hit them with a Deadly Force 1 Flamethrower (or your favourite manipulation), which yields a 4 to resist drain if I'm doing my math correctly (spellslinging ain't my strong point) and will do a fair amount of hurt to your typical magery-type. A Fireball would be doable with a 6 to resist drain, and eliminates the dodging problem.
Not great, no, but not useless I'd be inclined to say.

~J

[Polaris]

Kagetenshi,

Actually a force 1 deadly elemental manip would have a drain target number of 3 (1/2 round down +1+2 for overdrain). Actually this is a clever way to use the spell. Naturally it means that the resistance numbers will always be two as well.

In addition to all of that, spell defense dice will actually cut through this spell like butter which weakens it further.

Finally, you can only toss as many dice into your force 1 flamethrower as you could into your force 6 manabolt. For a starting character that is usually twelve dice. Considering that the target can dodge and has a TN of 2 on the damage resistance, that bites. It bites even more when you consider that you must resist a higher drain code than your target does....and you don't have as many dice to help you.....

Getting back to the topic......

Even if you do manage to damage the mage, you will still not damage the fetishes in all likelyhood even if they are worn out in the open. If they are worn under armor, then they are essentially immune from even the strongest elemental manips.

-Polaris

[John Campbell]

Hell, cast it at Force 3. Drain power for a 3D Flamethrower is still only 4D. Casting it at D eliminates the penalty involved in affecting inanimate objects, which means that even manufactured high-tech objects will be affected almost half of the time. If the object is especially vulnerable to the element (electronics being hit by Lightning Bolt, for a canon example), they get a -1 to their OR, too, which improves the odds for even manufactured high-tech objects to better than 50/50 if you pick an appropriate spell.

Fetishes are unlikely to be manufactured high-tech objects, anyway. Such things make poor magical materials. That's why they're so difficult to affect to begin with...

And I don't consider destroying equipment with elemental manipulations to be picking on the players. As a player, I expect that the GM will apply the secondary effects of my elemental attacks to NPCs' equipment... that's most of the reason I even bother casting them. As Polaris so brilliantly points out, they're not really worth their hefty Drain otherwise. That being the case, I'd be nothing more than a hypocritical whiner if I complained about NPC elemental manipulations damaging my PC's equipment as per the rules.

I haven't complained when my equipment's been damaged by explosions or other excessive applications of brute force, either. That's common sense, though, and not explicitly outlined in the rules, so I couldn't expect munchkin rules lawyers to understand my position on that...

[Polaris]

John,

Incorrect. There is no rule that says that fetishes have to be 'natural' objects. In fact the rules state quite clearly that fetishes can be made of the same things that foci can....and foci can be any object...including highly processed items.

In addition to that, you do not automatically get to affect all the items on a person with an elemental manip. They have to be able to *be* effected first (read the section on elemental manips if you doubt me). Thus a fetish made of processed ceramic worn in the inside of a coat would simply be immune from elemental manips. Ceramic does not burn so fire is out (it says so in the description). It is worn in the inside of the armor, so acid is out (and ceramic is immune to acid anyway). Finally ceramic is an insulator so electricity is out.

My point is that the rules have to apply equally to everyone or no one, and if the GM made the rule vs fetishes and not a Sam's gun and ammo, then I would feel quite right in walking out.

-Polaris

[The Jopp]

Hmm, I didn't find what I was looking for so I'll ask all the wise people gathered here.

It says that an Astrally Projecting mage can only affect Astrally Active beings with Mana spells. Now,what happens if said projecting mage sneaks through a wall, finds a group of "goons" and throws a FIREBALL at them? Will the spell just fizzle because it is not a MANA spell or would it affect all the living beings in the room BECAUSE it is a PHYSICAL spell? The drain would be horrible and physical so that would justify the above effect but how unbalancing would it be?

I can't find anything in the rule preventing the mage from actually casting the spell, but what would happen? Would only the astrally active beings in the room be affected or would the actual fire also hurt everyone else? Would secondary effects apply?

:| Me confused.

[Sphynx]

Read page 182, the last paragraph under Astral Spellcasting. Your answer is there.

Sphynx

[The Jopp]

WILCO. :D

What book? MITS or BBB?

[Sphynx]

BBB

Sphynx

[BitBasher]

I missed this earlier...

[Siege]

Remember who you're talking to Bit.

-Siege

[BitBasher]

I know, I just... can't fathom that.

In my game you are not safe, your equipment is not safe, aour apartment is definitely not 100% safe.

Your bank account is pretty safe but people still split amongst multiple legitimate and shadow banks to protect their assets from malicious hackers.

Riggers lose vehicles and drones. I had a rigger without any vehicles for a real life year in a game, and he stuck it out until things got better. Hew was a pretty competent sammy when he eventually got a ride again. His vehicles didnt get lost because of being destroyed, but because he came in debt to organized crime and used them to call it even.

People make enemies, its not unheard of to have your house ransacked and crap stolen. No matted how cool you think your defenses are, remember... YOU are the people hired explicitly to beat those defenses and there's always someone better than you.

I don't see ANYTHING in this game as a constant, or a shelter in the storm which you can cling. An enemy that is competent enough and can do enough research will find out about your weaknesses and exploit them. Thinkgs like fetish requirements is a weakness.

I don't see this thing happen often, but when it does happen it's going to happen when you absolutely needed it the most. When the feces really hits the rotating oscillator.

I guess maybe I'm just really a bastard GM but my players really, REALLY don't take any of this for granted. They live their little lives waiting for the other shoe to drop. Nothing, not friends, family, gear, being awakened, or their own life is 100% constant or dependable.

That's probably why my people never use fetishes. Because someday it's not going to be there, and they better hope to god that it's not a life or death scenario when that happens.