 SINless: the new "immigrant problem"? |
 May 22 2006, 01:48 AM
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#1
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957  |
If you don't care about the political background and just want the meat of the Shadowrun portion of the thread, jump to the end. :)
A pretty big political situation here in America currently is the "Immigrant Problem." That is to say the influx of illegal aliens and their effect on the job market. As noncitizens they have much fewer rights when it comes to employment. Because of that they will frequently work for much less than the govenerment proscribed minimum wage, and are therefor viewed as having taken jobs away from actual citizens. Becuse of this, large groups of people are protesting immigration, immigrants are protesting anti-immigration laws, and they're talking about closing off our Southern border with a big Anti-illegal Immigration wall. First, I know that one paragraph doesn't come close to completely describing the situation, it's nuances, whether a problem actually exists, or how it should be fixed if it does. It isn't meant to, I'm just trying to give enough information sot hat the non-Americans here can better understand me when I start to relate it to Shadowrun later. Second, I have an opinion on the issue. You probably have one on the issue. They may or may not match. My opinion has been mentioned elsewhere, but is entirely irrelevant to this topic. Likewise, your opinion, while valuable to the extent that all opinions are valuable, isn't really relevant to this topic either, unless you can express it in a way that relates it to Shadowrun. In other words, I'm not looking for an immigration debate here, just setting some background information out there. Now that all that crap is out of the way, would the SINless be akin to an Immigration Problem in 2070? 1) There is suddenly a huge influx of them. 2) They have no employment rights, and so would likely work for less than the government proscribed minimum wage. 3) That could be viewed as taking jobs from actual citizens. If it is similar enough, what could the governments and people do about it? I doubtt here would be a huge nationwide SINless rally like there recently was for immigrants, because in a distopian future, popping your head too high above water is asking to get it "cropped around the edges." Jobless unskilled SINned laborers would almost certainly resent losing jobs to SINless "leeches." Likewise if the country in question has human rights laws they could extend those to noncitizens like America does, costing money to feed, educate, and hospitalize SINless people. What kinds of effects would this have in an SR world? I'm thinking riots where SINless go to get jobs as day laborers. An offshoot of Humanis or some other political group deciding that the only good SINless is a dead SINless. Runners could be hired as muscle or protection by either side. There could even become a bounty on the SINless, doubled if that person is killed while at work. |
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May 22 2006, 02:41 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 20-April 06 From: La Islas de Republica de Bananas (Philippines) Member No.: 8,488 |
I never actually considered that, something to think about for my games then.
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May 22 2006, 02:57 AM
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#3
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I only thought of it because my housekeeper didn't show up on the day they had the big Immigrant Rallies.
Pshaw! I wish! :( |
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May 22 2006, 03:21 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 20-April 06 From: La Islas de Republica de Bananas (Philippines) Member No.: 8,488 |
Hmmm ... the SINless aren't exactly in the same position since they did probably grow up in the UCAS (or whatever base country of the setting) but they are not citizens ... so similar enough.
So your housekeeper DID show up on the day they had the big immigrant rally? |
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May 22 2006, 04:18 AM
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#5
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
[ Spoiler ]
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May 22 2006, 04:24 AM
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#6
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Woops. Wrong quote.
This post has been edited by SL James: May 22 2006, 04:29 AM |
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May 22 2006, 06:55 PM
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#7
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I think I had actually mentioned this in another thread.
This would be the new immigrant problem, except in that when it becomes too much of a problem, Lone Star appears on the scene, someone inevitably throws a bottle (or some such silly act of violence, which leaves a smart runner wondering if it was staged or not), Lone Star whips out the tear gas, things break into violence and, of course, the Star slaughters people. Alternatively, they go out and arrest a bunch of people for obstructing business, trespassing, making a nuisance, protesting withotu a permit, etc. Because they're SINless, the news generally doesn't follow what happens six months later at the 'trial'. SINless doesn't mean dumb, though. So the SINless "problem" is mostly just a problem for the SINless, and it stays fairly quiet. The people with SINs already know about it, don't care, and don't want to hear about it. The people without don't want to get shot or disappeared. |
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May 22 2006, 06:58 PM
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#8
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
The ones that can't get jobs because the SINless work for half the wages would definitely care. |
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May 22 2006, 07:00 PM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Also, any idea about what other thread that would be?
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May 22 2006, 11:46 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 21-July 05 From: Seattle Member No.: 7,508 |
But, according to SR4, you need a SIN (on your commlink) to do almost everything - even to ride a bus.
Also
So, those jobs that the SINless are taking are not legal jobs. Most likely, a person with a SIN wouldn't be taking that job anyway - you won't get your government paid social security (or equivalent), your medical benefits, your rights to, well, any protection at all. Actually, it sounds pretty hard for a SINless to even find a job, much less hold on to it. And the SINless population wouldn't be using up government resources (outside of law enforcement) because they can't go to school, get welfare, or even receive medical treatment (there was a book sometime that pointed out that hospitals can now turn away SINless people, regardless of their injuries, unlike hospitals today). For the vast majority of the SINing population, I'd guess that the SINless problem just doesn't exist. |
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May 22 2006, 11:53 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I'll use construction as an example, as it's one of the places I've seen it happen here in Texas. Let's say you've got a construction job you're working your ass off to finish. During the week you have your well paid legal workers cutting, swing, and nailing their way to a finished builing. all that work generates a good amount of trash, especially if you're remodelling and not just building something new. You could spend your Fridays or a chunk of each afternoon paying those guys to clean up. Or you could spend less money and pay a legal citizen a competitive wage (at least minimum wage) to clean it up on a Saturday. Another option is to pay an illegal immigrant less than minimum wage to clean it up on a Saturday.
The immigrant is performing legal work duties. It's the fact that he's not a citizen and has no work visa that makes it not be a legal job. In the absence of illegal day laborers either currently employed construction workers get longer hours or a longer work cycle, or legal day laborers get jobs paying at elast minimum wage. We have almost the exact same situation in Texas and California now as countries with a huge post-crash SINless population have in 2070. It's a pretty sizable problem today, and I don't see many reasons why it would be less in 2070. |
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May 23 2006, 12:14 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 21-July 05 From: Seattle Member No.: 7,508 |
Yes, we have the same situation here in the Pacific NW. However, to point out the construction job situation - how would the SINless laborer get there? Can't buy a car, can't ride the bus, is the crew boss going to go pick a couple of laborers up at a 'day labor' site? And if the construction is in a neighborhood (subdivision) or within city limits, and SR4 has established that everyone needs to have a comlink broadcasting their SIN at all times (hello, big brother)... well, you better hope no drones or police go cruising by.
Although I think the SINless population is very large, by virtue of the ever-present commlink and SIN checks, they're effectively confined to the slums and dark edges of society. For this reason, I imagine the 'fake SIN' issue to be much larger - why not hire a shmuck with a fake sin and then pay him 1/4 wages? He's not going to complain, and the employer is still hiring a legal citizen. For the true SINless, this isn't an option, which keeps them tucked away where society can ignore them. |
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May 23 2006, 12:23 AM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
That's exactly what happens today. If it's anything like today it isn't even looked at sideways most of the time (at least not until the recent major focus on it politically). You can drive to downtown Fort Worthat almost any time and hire someone to work for you that day, and the corner you hire them at hasn't changed in years.
That's only in certain parts of town. You couldn't bring your SINless day laborer to help you build in a AAA section of town, but anything lower than that is workable.
I think you're overestimating the number of areas that require a broadcast SIN. You can't ride the bus, but you don't really need to. The store you shop at is around the corner, the school your children go to at the taxpayers' expense is within walking distance, and the people that hire day laborers come to you.
It's still a crime if you know he has a fake SIN and hire him on it anyway. And if he's an actual citizen he might take the job, take the pay, and then sue you afterwords. The SINless can't sue. Edit:
If you don't have set parts of town where you can go and hire an illegal alien to work for you for the day then your situation is only similar, not the same. |
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May 23 2006, 12:48 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 21-July 05 From: Seattle Member No.: 7,508 |
So, by SR4 rules, your kids can't go to public schools, you can't buy stuff at a store (requires a bank account to transfer funds via your commlink), you can't rent an apartment (keeping you at a squatter level of lifestyle), and you can't travel (legally) except by foot. You can't access medical care, you can't go through any security checkpoints... your life sucks. :D Now, I'll admit, many areas probably don't require broadcast SINs. Downtown areas and nicer neighborhoods probably do. So there is some leeway in that. But considering just how rare credsticks are these days, to get paid, you'll want to be paid either in trade/goods, or certified credstick. Certified credstick is probably the best option for many jobs. But in the slums, a certified credstick would be pretty valuable... so you'd better watch your back. So, yes, it probably is possible for a SINless person to get a job outside the slums. Difficult, but possible. Still, for the most part, I think they'd be fairly invisible to the SIN'd population. My point in all this, is that, in my opinion, to the normal citizens of UCAS, the SINless population is only a crime problem. I don't think many citizens would even consider what (if any) impact they have on employment issues. They certainly wouldn't have an impact on social services, medical services, education or even most retail... |
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May 23 2006, 12:56 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 21-July 05 From: Seattle Member No.: 7,508 |
Actually, we have very nice places, with pretty blue signs that state "Day Labor Pick-up" in both english and spanish, and covered benches. Being that it is Portland (the city of roses), there are often even flowers planted around the benches. :D And yes, most of the folks waiting there are illegal (although some have forged work documents). |
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May 23 2006, 01:03 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 20-April 06 From: La Islas de Republica de Bananas (Philippines) Member No.: 8,488 |
I can just imagine illegal SINless sweatshops all over the Redmond and Puyallup Barrens owned and operated (under a different name of course) by the big corps (and protected by their goons) producing all sorts of consumer goods at a much more competetive price than goods produced by legal workers.
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May 23 2006, 01:04 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784 |
My favored modification of the SR Metaplot revolves around the expansion of the welfare state in the US before the first crash. When coupled with a large illegal immigrant population acting as a drain on the state, laws are passed that A: Require "Proof of citizenship" (SIN, SSN#, ect.), before enjoying any rights/privilages of citizenship. B: Amends the US constitution on the assignment of citizenship. Being born within the confines of the US no longer conveys citizenship, you need to prove that at least one parent is a citizen and that all parents are in the country legally. The fallout from this causes major sinless popultion after the crash, since so many records were destroyed. It also results in a large Ork/Troll SINless population after Goblinization. "I'm sorry Sir, this photo dosen't match you at all!". With the more affluent sectors still in control of the vote, the Gov is not inclined to correct these records becuse of the drain on the Treasury from the expanded welfare rolls, and the loss of tax revenue from Corp ExtraTerritorality.
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May 23 2006, 01:07 AM
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#18
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Your life definitely sucks, but those are only legal limits. There will be slum lords willing to get paid too much for too little. There will be stores that take hard creds. There will be free clinics and cheap clinics. There will probably be fake clinics willing to take all the money you can give for a bunch of placebos.
I disagree on the difficult part. If we take RL to it's "shadowrunesque" state then SINless laborers will be a valued commodity. Large corporations outsource to countries that let them pay dirt wages. Small corporations can't, but they can use the SINless as cheap labor whenever possible.
Obviously we disagree. Luckily we're talking about an imaginary populace in a fictional future, so whiever version we prefer is good for our games. :)
Then why did you seem so incredulous when talking about employers driving to pick day laborers up? It seems I misconstrued your disbelief to mean a lack of experience on the issue. |
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May 23 2006, 01:37 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 21-July 05 From: Seattle Member No.: 7,508 |
Hey, the sweatshop idea is great! Very little transportation costs to get the goods to market... you'd have to really protect the place and provide your own electricity, water and infastructure, but think of the run possibilities (exposing a sweat-shop's corporate affiliations, helping a gang hit a place, etc, etc). Excellent idea!
Also, I think SINless would make great laboratory rats... er, test subjects... for a corp that needs to test that new pepper spray or the allergy-potential for that new makeup (Never Tested On Animals... :grinbig: ). |
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