 Where do you draw the rape line?, magical manipulation |
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 May 22 2006, 11:31 PM
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#26
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Midnight Toker  Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456  |
Whkipenia has some information on GHB and Rohypnol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghb http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohypnol Aparently, GHB is popular amongst ravers because it can produce euphoria at low doses. I seriously doubt the claim that it is impossible to OD on GHB and wouldn't recomend combining it with alcohol or other depressents. |
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May 22 2006, 11:33 PM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
That and the human mind often has an aversion to violence. If you slip them a Mickey then they aren't even traumatized by the event. If you club them over the head they'll definitely know something happened.
I don't know that the rapists routinely use more, just that most of them aren't likely to be trained anesthesiologists or pharmacists. they may use too little, too much, or just enough. I'm not sure about Rohypnol, but GHB is a fashionable drug outside of date rapists as well. If someone in a club dies of GHB and alcohol combined it's possible they did it themselves. It's highly unlikely that they clubbed themselves too hard over the head in the parking lot. GHB and Rohypnol get around the "snow Fox carries a gun" problem. If you try to hit her in the parking lot you might miss, not hit hard enough, or step on something and alert her. Then you get shot and/or asked "how do you feel aboutt he word no?" and "can I cut off your balls?" |
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May 22 2006, 11:34 PM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I would doubt any claim about the impossibility of ODing on any drug. Even enough THC in your body could kill you. I have no idea how many bowls you'd have to smoke, but it's probably possible. |
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May 22 2006, 11:38 PM
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#29
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Are you sure about that? The use date rape drugs is so widely known now that it's a cliche. If I were in a bar and I saw some woman suddenly act totally out of it whereas she was fine a few moments ago the use of a drug in her drink might spring immediately to mind. Hell, the admonition made to women not to leave a drink on the bar counter when going to the restroom is a cliche. Few things would be more suspicious than a sudden change in behavior on the part of a woman at the bar in a way that looked drug induced. Furthermore, you'd still need the chance to put the drug in the drink unobserved. At bars there's often a lot of people, a lot of heads pointing into a lot of different directions at once. While obviously it wouldn't be impossible to surreptitiously drug a drink I'd think there'd also be decent odds of getting caught. And if you were putting something into a woman's drink I think that everyone's first thought would be that you were planning rape. In other words, I don't even think that the drug route would look less like a crime than the assault route. Hell, there are probably less witnesses on the street. |
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May 22 2006, 11:42 PM
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#30
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I'm thinking more of the blunt trauma to the head being more than a little bit of collaborative evidence. It's pretty much impossible to feign ignorance while wearing a ski mask and carrying a club.
But I think your limiting the scenario with the drugs. Who says you give it to her at the bar? And if she gets wasted, why would anyone say something about her leaving with the guy she came in with? And so on. One is possible to look non criminal, not that it will always appear so. |
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May 22 2006, 11:43 PM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,283 Joined: 17-May 05 Member No.: 7,398 |
Which is why I remember seeing on TV that the usual MO od date rapists down here in Aussie is to scope out the girl they're after, buy the same drink as her, drug their own drink, sit down with her, put their drinks next to each other, talk for a while, walk off with her drink, and wait.
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May 22 2006, 11:45 PM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It all comes down to timing. You wouldn't try it right at the bar where everyone is sitting unless you were really ballsy. But you could buy two drinks and walk over to a table with them. One is for you and the other is a duplicate of the one that's sitting in front of ther almost empty. On the way over you drug hers.
You also don't have to do it at a bar. If you do it at a rave you've got he cover of strobe lighting and whacked out youngsters (to borrow a phrase from my upcoming old age). You've also then got the cover that GHB is probably in every 8th person's pocket. |
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May 22 2006, 11:45 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Damn you for posting as I'm typing!!! ;)
That could work too. |
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May 22 2006, 11:55 PM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
to a point. i don't tend to keep track of the behavior of every person in any bar i go to, monitoring them for sudden changes in behavior. if the girl is there alone, or has seperated herself from the friends she came in with, sudden changes in her behavior aren't likely to set off any alarms. on the other hand, someone swinging a club at someone's head is going to draw attention no matter how little-known the attacker and victim are. but, yeah, the chance that someone might notice that you're acting weird is part of why not going anywhere alone is important. |
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May 23 2006, 12:27 AM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Good points. I guess that using those strategies you outlined above your endeavor could be less risky than outright assault. That being said, those strategies would only work if someone dosen't carry their drink around with them and watch it carefully. If someone were to get the same drink as me but then walk off with my drink I think I'd notice because drinks are so damn expensive. At the same time, it would be sort of gross to continue on someone else's drink. I'd probably just get disgusted. I'm guessing that other people would react in a similar way but perhaps I'm wrong. Anyway, I found some interesting info about rohphynol here: http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t990311b.html
Wow. Still, though, even if someone's memory were harmed, wouldn't a mysterious 8-12 hour period of incapacitation ring some alarm bells. If I were female, and I went out with some guy, and all of a sudden after only 3-5 drinks I were incapacitated for 8-12 hours, I'd be extremely concerned. |
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May 23 2006, 12:36 AM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You'd notice it even if the drink left on the bar was at about the same level as yours was, you'd already had three or four, and person struck you as "just another guy trying to use cheesy lines to get laid"?
It's possible you'd get concerned, but if you just dozed off while watching a movie with them and woke up on the couch the next morning you might not think twice. You might even feel good aboutt he person because they brought you a blanket before they slipped out. Or maybe you did have a big chunk of memory gone. You won't necessarily remember who you left the bar with, or even that you left the bar at all. You might get worried or you might just chalk it up to having drank too much too fast. Date rape does get prosecuted, and convictions do occur, but the nature of it makes it sometimes hard to secure a conviction, especially when you have no reason to think you even had sex and so don't go to a doctor to get checked out. |
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May 23 2006, 02:46 AM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Um, yeah. Drinks at a bar are expensive. Whenever I go to a bar I keep a mental tally of the cost I've incurred so far and I never ever spend more than $20. When I go to the bar I'm in effect counting drinks. If someone were to try and make off with drink #4 and my expense level at $12 I'm going to be very annoyed. I want to be reasonably hardcore sloshed by if not before the $20 mark and if someone makes off with one of my drinks it will be harder and harder for me to attain that goal. I mean, considering how bars are expensive, I'd assume that people usually do the same thing that I do. Set a maximum expenditure level and mentally keep track of the bill and the drinks. When you go in with that kind of mentality you really do eyeball your own drink like a hawk. Maybe I'm just out of touch with how most people go to the bar but for my part I basically cling jealously to my drink because of the cost. EDIT: Regarding the other point about how a victim might not realize they've been drugged. I have never taken these drugs myself, but I understand that when someone goes and gets general anathesia for surgery they often wake up feeling very thirsty and very bad in a variety of ways. Do you think it's possible that a rohpynol victim would wake up after a large dose (say several miligrams as opposed to the one cited in the above link) and not feel very strange? |
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May 23 2006, 02:58 AM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
You've never woken up with a hangover? Most people can't tell the difference.
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May 23 2006, 03:07 AM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Well, once my mom went and had surgery. She told me that when she woke up, it was like something out of the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner (her words). She told me that she was so thirsty that her tongue felt like it had swollen up and was taking up her whole mouth, and she could barely speak. She begged the nurse for water and the nurse shoved a piece of ice in her mouth instead. The ice seemed wonderfully refreshing but soon it was melted and my mom still felt like her tongue was enormous. Now, I have *never* had a hangover experience like that. In my experience hangover involves a combination of headache and GI tract inflammation. It does *not* include freaking Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner swollen tongue syndrome. Furthermore, if I only had 3-5 drinks and someone slipped me some rohpynol, I'm guessing that I wouldn't necessarily have an inflamed GI tract, which is the big thing that tends to be common with a large excess of alcohol. So, in summary, the main things I've noticed in my own hangovers (which are rare because I always use a lot of water when drinking) are 1.) headache and 2.) GI tract inflammation. I am pretty sure that you wouldn't get those symptoms from a few miligrams of a depressant. |
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May 23 2006, 03:11 AM
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#40
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
I've woken up from surgery as well, and the effect wasn't so pronounced. It's unpleasant, and your mouth is dry, but dying-on-a-boat swollen tongue is likely something related to more serious anaesthesia and surgery.
I'm not saying the two are the same. They are distinct. But generally, people can't tell the difference, and waking up after date rape is generally already confusing as hell. |
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May 23 2006, 03:27 AM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I'm not sure if I'm explaining it well. You aren't missing a drink. There's a drink still on the table right where yours was, with it's liquid level at the same level. The difference is that when the person that came to talk to you pointed out some weirdo at the other side of the room he used the distraction to switch glasses and leave you the spiked one. Unless you've somehow physically marked your drink there aren't a lot of clues to tell you anything happened.
It might be differences culturally, age based, or just in who we are and who we hang out with, but most of the people I know that go to bars start a tab and then start drinking. At the end of the night you know you've had 4 or 5, but aren't really surprised when the tabe says 6. Of course, I'm a lush and like to buy drinks for the people I came with (they return the favor). Re: hangover vs. anesthesia: I've had both and they're remarkably similar. If I wasn't looking for it I doubt I'd know the difference other then "man, I haven't had a hangover this bad in years." I think that you (Wounded Ronin) are the type of person who is constantly in touch with his surroundings. You keep an eye on your drink and your budget. I think most people aren't that way. I used to be that way back when I was broke and had to keep a tighter rein on my spending or be broke at midnight, but have really relzxed a lot since I graduated and started making money. Most of my friends are the same. Note: I'm not trying to say you're broke, or that you exhibit broke people / stingy behavior. I'm just pointing out my situation. I have no idea why you act differently, it might just be that you're a responsible adult (unlike me). :) |
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May 23 2006, 03:47 AM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Well, I suppose that if someone essentially was able to set me up for a sucker punch ("look over there for some reason" BAM) they could in theory do a drink switcharoo. I mean, the way you describe it, I can't deny that it's possible. Of course, if the man in question switched my 1/6th vermouth gin martini with an identical-looking dry vodka martini that was a bit warmer, then there'd be hell to pay. :rotfl:
I guess it would come down to a question of how much the person drank, then. If the person drank a huge amount perhaps anything would go regarding afteraffects. (Even death, if you think about it.) But if a person only had only a few drinks, I'd guess that they probably shouldn't get hung over from that. I'd guess that any hangover-like feeling would be quite suspicious. I mean, *especially* if my genitalia were sore on top of that.
Well, I am poor, but I'm also kind of compulsive and get feelings of guilt whenever I spend too much money. Thing is, even when I literally have a thousand bucks in my bank account just sitting there doing nothing in reserve for random emergencies, I still don't ever spend more than $20 at the bar. If I did, I'd stop enjoying myself, I think. I think it's because both my parents were really poor when they were young and they did all kinds of things that instilled a built-in sense of thrift; for example, whenever we used to go out to restaurants or things like that they'd always make a point of ordering only an entree and no beverages besides for just water. Obsessive compulsive mental configuration wins again! |
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May 23 2006, 05:43 AM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
We were really poor when I was growing up too, but I reacted the exact opposite. :)
It sounds like you wouldn't be a very good choice for a GHB rapist (if you were a woman of course, GHB rape doesn't work well on men I asume), but it also sounds like that would be fairly easy for the person to tell if they were at all watchful. Eyes that scan the room and a hand always onthe drink glass is too much effort when there are so many easily schmoozed gullible women out there. |
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May 23 2006, 06:53 AM
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#44
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 17-June 04 Member No.: 6,409 |
Which shaman, the one with the stated Charisma 2? Way to undermine getting the thread back on topic. :please: |
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May 23 2006, 07:00 AM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Huh? The shaman using spells to enhance his ability to get laid is very on topic. That comment was thus more on topic then a lot of other stuff in this thread. Including other posts by me, which would probably have been better targets for your ire. ;)
How's this: Anything that does not directly influence them is probably fair game. Tailored Pheremones, Mask spells, and high levels of Kinesics are perhaps immoral, but not illegal. If I found out a 2 Charisma troll shaman used magic to trick my daughter into getting it on I'd be really pissed, but wouldn't expect there to be any legal recourse we could take, at least not as far as geting him convicted on rape charges. Perhaps that would closer constitute fraud? |
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May 23 2006, 07:23 AM
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#46
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it really depends on the jurisdiction. in conservative areas, possibly including the CAS, use of such spells to gain sexual favors could well constitute rape. in more progressive areas, such as the NAN, they probably wouldn't. in batshit insane areas, such as the UCAS, who knows?
as far as morality is concerned, i don't think i'd have a problem with someone using Cha-boosting magic to get laid, any more than i'd have a problem with someone plying a prospective partner with alcohol to loosen them up. it's kinda scummy, but meh. |
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May 23 2006, 07:30 AM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
So then what differentiates "scummy" from "you'd have a problem with it?" It seems to me like you have a problem with it on some level, or it would be "ok" instead of "scummy."
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May 23 2006, 07:46 AM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it doesn't hurt anybody who doesn't basically deserve it, so i don't find any moral fault with it. my personal choice is to not take advantage of people like that, because i wouldn't like dealing with how they'd feel about me the next morning.
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May 23 2006, 03:21 PM
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#49
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
You can't OD on THC by smoking pot. You'd die of smoke inhalation and/or just pass out well before ODing. Based on rodent studies a human would need to smoke something like 20 pounds in a go, IIRC. Flat out not possible. Now if you were injecting pure THC (as they did in the rodent studies) then it would be possible, but human limitations prevent ODing on pot through smoking or eating. So while it may be possible to OD on THC, you can't get there by smoking bowls. Please note that I am only talking about a single episode, and am not making any statements one way or the other about the long-term effects and/or repeated use. Drugs are bad, m'kay? Also, don't smoke pot if you've been drinking. |
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May 23 2006, 05:05 PM
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#50
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah, it ruins the effect.
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