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> Forgery, How to fake ID's, Images and other stuff
The Jopp
post May 22 2006, 11:20 AM
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Using forgery – a few questions.

It seems that forgery is a somewhat open ended skill and a bit confusing to use. For example, Image Doctoring.

Image doctoring is used for editing an image, painting, photo etc – but what about digital photos?

If you have a hacker who gets into a system and wants to hack the security cameras stored files and remove all the runners visible in the memory of the cameras. Would he do the following…

A: Hacking+Edit to modify the images/film to remove all traces
B: Hacking+Edit=Complementary dice for a Forgery+Agility test to create the false image.
C: Forgery+Agility=Complementary Dice for hacking+Edit to create the false image.
D: Forgery+Agility to modify the image.

I’m leaning towards C since the character can use his knowledge of forgery to improve the doctoring of the image.

Creating a false ID card
Ok, I want to fake an ID card to gain access to a facility and I need to insert information into several systems in order to gain access.

A: Hacking+Edit to insert fake information inside the personel files (inserting security clearance, references to the hardcopy ID, swipe card information.)
B: Computer+Edit test to edit possible images needed on the card.
C: Forgery test adding successes from the hacking test in “A” and “B”
D: The successes equals the threshold for anyone to see if the id is false.

Now, A and B would give the forger some extra dice but I do find it logical since all the tests work together to create the fake ID card instead of just one Forgery+Agility test when computer systems and security plays an important role when it comes to ID’s.

Any other thoughts?
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Serbitar
post May 22 2006, 11:22 AM
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I think forgery is only usefull for forging "hardcopy" data, like photos and hardcopy passports (like we have today). That forgery is connected to agility is strong evidence for that opinion.

I would not allow to roll forgery for anything related to digital IDs, images, whatever, at all.

As a result: Forgery in SR4 = useless (everything is digital anyways) and I would answer A to both of your questions.
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Butterblume
post May 22 2006, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 125)
As another example, doctoring an image would require a Computer + Edit program Test in addition to the Forgery Test.


As implicated in the rules, you would make a Forgery+Agility test to actually doctor the image. The Computer+Edit test gives the max number of hits that count.

Edit: Hm, I probably missunderstood what you meant ;). But I'll let my statement stand, for now :D.
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PH3NOmenon
post May 22 2006, 01:29 PM
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For most computer tests our group uses Computer + Logic with hits limited by program rating.

Also, p225 tells us:
QUOTE ("p225")
Note that many hackers use their Edit program to eliminate any records of their tampering or illicit activity on a node. To do this, the hacker first needs to locate the node's security logs (requiring a Data Search action), and edit them to remove all traces of his activity.


There's no mention about doctoring images, Hacking+Edit is only used to erase the logs of one's prescence in a node.

I'd also suggest rereading p125

QUOTE ("forgery @ p125")
Note that some forgeries will require additional tests in order to pull them off; the quality of the forgery(hits scored) will be limited by the complementary skill hits. <snip> As another example, doctoring an image would require a Computer + Edit program test in addition to the Forgery test


in RAW you'd roll Agility + Forgery followed Computer + Edit, hits on one test limiting hits on the other.

Keeping that in mind, i'd rule somthing like the following for doctoring images:

Computer + Edit for preventing another episode of "Runner's Caught on Tape" when in a node. Hit limited by Forgery skill. (this would translate into a Computer + Logic test, limited by both Forgery AND Edit in my games, can't forge better than you can edit and can't edit better than you can forge after all.)

As far as modifying an ID card goes... I don't really see how that would work. Clearance isn't stored on the card itself, but serverside. Creating a whole new card that will authenticate you as someone who's not on the other hand... there's your forgery use.



You're welcome ;)
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Edward
post May 22 2006, 01:34 PM
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The using forgery section (SR4 p 124) makes it quite clear.

Making a fake image or object involves forgery.

Make a test as appropriate for the medium in use (computing + edit for image files, painting + intuition for a work of art). Make a forgery check. The hits on the forgery check are limited by the hits on the check for the medium.

It dose say that you cant make a fake ID with a simple forgery check. You could however duplicate a certified credstick. The problem being that it will only work until the original has been used again.

I would suggest that for editing cameras you normally wouldn’t bother to make a forgery, you would just play back old footage. I would also suggest that you don’t need forgery to forge plane text files, such as computer logs.

The thing that surprises me most is that agility has anything to do with making fake computer images.

Edward
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The Jopp
post May 22 2006, 02:21 PM
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QUOTE (Edward)

The thing that surprises me most is that agility has anything to do with making fake computer images.

Edward

You and me both.

Personally i'd rather see it connected to either logic or intuition.
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Serbitar
post May 22 2006, 02:21 PM
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1.) Forgery uses agility.
2.) Tempering with an image using a PC does not need agility at all.

-> Tempering with a digital image does not need forgery. Computer + Edit does the job.

Consistency before mindless SR4 examples.

I say again: Forgery as it is described in SR4 rules is the "old school" forgery of forging paper passports and diplomas and such. It is not digital forgery. This is already covered by computer skills.
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The Jopp
post May 22 2006, 02:22 PM
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Double post
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Edward
post May 22 2006, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE (SR4 p125 @ first paragraph, last sentence)

Doctoring an image would require a computer + edit program test in addition to the forgery test.


Clearly by the RAW forgery is used for at least some image manipulation. It makes sense that the skill would be used for things like faking a picture of the president getting a blow job from his sectary (that or a well concealed camera). Unfortunately the attribute is wrong.

Edward
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Serbitar
post May 22 2006, 03:31 PM
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I am strictly against using two skills for one action. SR4 was supposed to be streamlined.
Everything takes just one skill roll, why should forgery take two? No reason for that.
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Shrike30
post May 22 2006, 11:59 PM
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Were it resolving a perception test or figuring out if I'd just gotten shot, I might want the system to streamline down to 1 die roll, but since we're talking about something that happens while the game is not in high gear, I really don't see it making a huge impact on gameplay to have two rolls involved. Hell, combat involves three sets of dice... the attack, the defend, and the damage resistance.
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Dewar
post May 23 2006, 12:18 AM
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It does take agility to photoshop an image currently. Sure, in SR you've got the matrix and you're not actually using your hands, but I still think it takes some hand-eye coordination to line everything up right and such. I can see why forgery is an agility skill, even when doing digital forgeries.
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Serbitar
post May 23 2006, 08:30 AM
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I just read the text about forgery again. Every example given is about hard copy forgery and not about digital forgery. Only in the rules text they try to also include one example of digital forgery (the one about the image), so I am pretty sure, forgery is only for hardcopy stuff.

About the 2 dice rolls: It is not about time, it is about consistency. Either you make all skill tests with two dice rolls or none. If you make some with two dice rolls and others not, then the outcome is not comparable anymore. Just like the SR3 skilltest with pool and without pool. You do not want that. Consistency makes or brakes a ruleset.
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Dranem
post May 23 2006, 09:01 AM
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QUOTE (Serbitar)
1.) Forgery uses agility.
2.) Tempering with an image using a PC does not need agility at all.

Obviously you have never drawn with a mouse or, ever better, a tablet... ;)

Any art requires signifant dexterity, otherwise your forgery could image will look like crrrap!

Mind you if it's just copy/pasting a stock image to a file to create fake ID, then that's simply an edit test.

So, to decide whether forgery is required, you would have to ask yourself how much image manipulation is required...
1) If it's simply splicing a data feed to cover your tracks. Or if you're copy/pasting images - No
2) If you are editing yourself out of a crowd of people in a camera shot, or using a few touch-ups to remove fingerprints from a forensics file, then you would would require a forgery test as well.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post May 23 2006, 09:06 AM
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Forgery is used for hardcopies, Hacking for softcopies... that's it. ;)
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Serbitar
post May 23 2006, 09:38 AM
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QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Forgery is used for hardcopies, Hacking for softcopies... that's it. ;)

Computer for softcopies. Hacking only when doing it without the appropriate user priviliges.
Apart from that, thats my opinion.
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NightHaunter
post May 24 2006, 12:21 PM
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QUOTE (Edward)
The thing that surprises me most is that agility has anything to do with making fake computer images.

Edward

Just link to a more appropriate attribute if the original one seems farfetched.
A lot of skills say usually in front of the linked attribute anyways.
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Edward
post May 24 2006, 03:57 PM
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Dewar. It makes sense that forgery is agility linked, even for digital images right up until the point when the character goes full VR, having shaky hands isn’t going to be a problem then.

Serbitar. You think that because there is no fluff on forgery and electronic media, and only one rule example that rule example is not true.

In your game if you want but defiantly not buy the RAW. That rule reference is after all written.

Edward
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Serbitar
post May 24 2006, 06:15 PM
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Good point, so let me phrase it that way:

By RAW forgery is used to doctor digital images, because of an explicitly given example, although the spirit of the rest of the example as well as the linked attribute says, that forgery is only used for hardcopy doctoring, not digital.

I recommend to use forgery for hardcopy and computer for digital doctoring, for consistency and common sense reasons.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post May 24 2006, 09:42 PM
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Just making sure... which example states that forging digital images uses Forgery?

p. 218 makes it pretty clear that (indeed) Computer is used.
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Serbitar
post May 24 2006, 09:51 PM
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QUOTE (SR4 p. 125)

As another example, doctoring an image would require a Computer + Edit test in addition to the Forgery Test.


Addition implies, that the Forgery is the prime skill and it must be a digital image, because of the involved computer test.
For consistency reasons I do not like this "double skilling".
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Edward
post May 25 2006, 12:01 AM
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Without using double skilling how do you get around the fact that forgery can be used on so many varied things. Sculpture, painting, signatures. Forging anything that would require a skill to make an original should require that skill.

Edward
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Nikoli
post May 25 2006, 12:08 AM
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Edit+Forgery maybe?
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cx2
post May 25 2006, 01:37 AM
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Or edit + whichever is lower of forgery or computer?

Most of the time you cnan easily find something to replace the original with. Want rid of those fingerprint records? Grab a set from a sinless slot in nowhere town and upload them.
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Serbitar
post May 25 2006, 11:31 AM
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The only three-variate system we have in Shadowrun is using Atribute+SKill with something else as limiter. So using computer+edit with forgery as limiter would be consistent.

But anyways, there are lots of skill test that would, if youw anted to do it realistically involve a lot of skills, butfor preactical reasons you just use the main skill.
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