IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> First Post, Some Questions
Shotgun
post May 24 2006, 03:06 AM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4
Joined: 24-May 06
Member No.: 8,598



Hello all, this is my first post here after lurking for a while. I've just gotten back into SR through 4th edition and am enjoying it mightily.

I am playing a Mage in a game (Ludwig the Somewhat Unstable) and have a couple of questions I wanted to clarify.

I have seen mention of the fact that Grounding is no longer available with spell-use although I cannot find ahywhere this is spelt out clearly. It simply doesn't seem to be mentioned as an option in the rules. So from my understanding, when a spell foci is used, say a sustaining foci, it has a dual nature. No grounding means that an astral mage cannot slam a RT mage with a spell. However, they could attack the foci and cause it to fail, either through dispelling (Counterspell) or a mana spell. Is this right?

What happens to cyberware when you use the Shapechange spell? It's not spelt out and it doesn't seem right that the cyberware wouldn't convert in some form. I was going to use the essence cost as a modifier, similar to healing, for characters who are cybered and are going to be subjected to Shapechange. This should take successful hits off any successful spellcast, making them a weaker animal than otherwise. Thoughts?

Also, is it viable to say have a sustaining foci on an occy strap (elastic strap) so when a mage shapechanges they can keep it attached that way and use it to sustain the spell?

Cheers
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post May 24 2006, 03:16 AM
Post #2


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



Grounding is forbidden by the rule that a magician must occupy the same plane as his target, he must perceive the target on that plane, and only mana spells can be cast on the astral.

QUOTE
However, they could attack the foci and cause it to fail, either through dispelling (Counterspell) or a mana spell. Is this right?

Yes, and also with Astral Combat. Dispelling targets just the spell, IIRC.

QUOTE
What happens to cyberware when you use the Shapechange spell?

In earlier editions it shifted with the target, but became nonfunctional.

QUOTE
Also, is it viable to say have a sustaining foci on an occy strap (elastic strap) so when a mage shapechanges they can keep it attached that way and use it to sustain the spell?

Yes. Also with equipment. Note that acid damage could be bad here. Think of a shapchanged rat in a drain pipe. That's why I go with piercings.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NightHaunter
post May 24 2006, 01:56 PM
Post #3


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 360
Joined: 18-March 02
From: Plymouth UK.
Member No.: 2,408



With regards to "grounding" i'm considering allowing an astral form to cast a physical spells at a duel natured target or active focus. After all it seems that this should work.
Though I seem to remember a rule forbidding the use of physical spells while projecting.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Aaron
post May 24 2006, 02:07 PM
Post #4


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,148
Joined: 27-February 06
From: UCAS
Member No.: 8,314



QUOTE (NightHaunter)
With regards to "grounding" i'm considering allowing an astral form to cast a physical spells at a duel natured target or active focus. After all it seems that this should work.
Though I seem to remember a rule forbidding the use of physical spells while projecting.

Right. There are no physical spells in astral space because there's no physical anything in astral space. No objects, no physics. Just thought and emotion.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NightHaunter
post May 24 2006, 03:20 PM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 360
Joined: 18-March 02
From: Plymouth UK.
Member No.: 2,408



QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (NightHaunter @ May 24 2006, 08:56 AM)
With regards to "grounding" i'm considering allowing an astral form to cast a physical spells at a duel natured target or active focus. After all it seems that this should work.
Though I seem to remember a rule forbidding the use of physical spells while projecting.

Right. There are no physical spells in astral space because there's no physical anything in astral space. No objects, no physics. Just thought and emotion.

However with a duel target could you not cast anyway. The effects would only happen on the Physical so you're not affecting the astral but you also have a target in the required zone?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Aaron
post May 24 2006, 03:55 PM
Post #6


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,148
Joined: 27-February 06
From: UCAS
Member No.: 8,314



QUOTE (NightHaunter)
However with a duel target could you not cast anyway. The effects would only happen on the Physical so you're not affecting the astral but you also have a target in the required zone?

I'm not quite parsing what you're saying, but I'll try this and see if it helps.

There are two rules in play here.
  1. The caster and the target must both be on the same plane.
  2. An astral caster may not cast physical spells.

This would suggest that an astral caster (wholly on the astral plane) may cast a spell at a dual-natured target (who exists simultaneously on the astral and physical) if that spell is a mana spell (since the caster cannot cast physical spells).

By the same token, an astral form that is manifesting on the physical plane can be targeted by a physical caster with a mana spell.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NightHaunter
post May 24 2006, 04:14 PM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 360
Joined: 18-March 02
From: Plymouth UK.
Member No.: 2,408



QUOTE (Aaron @ May 24 2006, 04:55 PM)
QUOTE (NightHaunter @ May 24 2006, 10:20 AM)
However with a duel target could you not cast anyway. The effects would only happen on the Physical so you're not affecting the astral but you also have a target in the required zone?

I'm not quite parsing what you're saying, but I'll try this and see if it helps.

There are two rules in play here.

  1. The caster and the target must both be on the same plane.
  2. An astral caster may not cast physical spells.

This would suggest that an astral caster (wholly on the astral plane) may cast a spell at a dual-natured target (who exists simultaneously on the astral and physical) if that spell is a mana spell (since the caster cannot cast physical spells).

By the same token, an astral form that is manifesting on the physical plane can be targeted by a physical caster with a mana spell.

Yeah thats what I thought the rules said.

But how about a "grounding" rule that allows you to cast physical spells at duel natured targets from the astral plane?

Of couse it's house rule only.

Edit: Sorry Shotgun, I seem to have stolen your thred.

This post has been edited by NightHaunter: May 24 2006, 04:15 PM
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Aaron
post May 24 2006, 05:13 PM
Post #8


Mr. Johnson
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,148
Joined: 27-February 06
From: UCAS
Member No.: 8,314



QUOTE (NightHaunter)
But how about a "grounding" rule that allows you to cast physical spells at duel natured targets from the astral plane?

Of couse it's house rule only.

For me, the grounding rule is gone, and good riddance. Having a fireball suddenly explode into the team with no warning from astral space is Not Fun.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Geekkake
post May 24 2006, 05:13 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 475
Joined: 13-March 06
From: dusty Mexican borderlands
Member No.: 8,372



QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (NightHaunter @ May 24 2006, 11:14 AM)
But how about a "grounding" rule that allows you to cast physical spells at duel natured targets from the astral plane?

Of couse it's house rule only.

For me, the grounding rule is gone, and good riddance. Having a fireball suddenly explode into the team with no warning from astral space is Not Fun.

Well, not for the PCs. The GM, on the other hand...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shrike30
post May 24 2006, 08:07 PM
Post #10


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,556
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Seattle
Member No.: 98



Yeah... but for him, it's not fun when the PCs do it to his sec teams. And that happens a lot more often...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Geekkake
post May 24 2006, 08:10 PM
Post #11


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 475
Joined: 13-March 06
From: dusty Mexican borderlands
Member No.: 8,372



QUOTE (Shrike30)
Yeah... but for him, it's not fun when the PCs do it to his sec teams. And that happens a lot more often...

Eh, my runners just took out a few dozen people in a gang safehouse during a party with nerve gas. At this point, I'm tempted to just let them split the Earth in two and have done with it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cain
post May 25 2006, 02:23 AM
Post #12


Grand Master of Run-Fu
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,840
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



QUOTE
This would suggest that an astral caster (wholly on the astral plane) may cast a spell at a dual-natured target (who exists simultaneously on the astral and physical) if that spell is a mana spell (since the caster cannot cast physical spells).

By the same token, an astral form that is manifesting on the physical plane can be targeted by a physical caster with a mana spell.

These are both correct, but the implication with #1 is that an astral caster can throw a manaball at a dual-natured target, and have it affect people on the physical plane. This is not the case.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cx2
post May 25 2006, 02:45 AM
Post #13


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 341
Joined: 3-October 05
Member No.: 7,802



I think what people are saying basically is what happens on the astral stays on the astral.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NightHaunter
post May 25 2006, 12:33 PM
Post #14


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 360
Joined: 18-March 02
From: Plymouth UK.
Member No.: 2,408



Ok I relent.
But how about Grounding MetaMagic?
With my above restrictions.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post May 25 2006, 01:20 PM
Post #15


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



How about you just learn Possession? Seriously, the ease of summoning a Spirit of Man to materialize and cast Death from Above is more than close enough to Grounding. Between the two (Possession and spirits) one has a good selection of balanced Astral attacks.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NightHaunter
post May 25 2006, 01:39 PM
Post #16


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 360
Joined: 18-March 02
From: Plymouth UK.
Member No.: 2,408



QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
How about you just learn Possession? Seriously, the ease of summoning a Spirit of Man to materialize and cast Death from Above is more than close enough to Grounding. Between the two (Possession and spirits) one has a good selection of balanced Astral attacks.

The problem with possesion is it's very much like control manipulation spells.
I you use them the GM will use them back.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post May 25 2006, 02:22 PM
Post #17


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



But Grounding isn't that way? Just imagine Lone Star cops carrying little dual-natured furries and tossing them around for their astral scouting mage to nuke!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Moon-Hawk
post May 25 2006, 02:47 PM
Post #18


Genuine Artificial Intelligence
********

Group: Members
Posts: 4,019
Joined: 12-June 03
Member No.: 4,715



QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
little dual-natured furries

What, like cat-girls? Okay, I'm imagining exploding cat-girl grenades. :eek:

Now, to add something useful to this post: I agree Kanada. I always thought grounding was kinda cool, but in the end it's just too un-fun when the opposition uses it. There are enough ways to cause trouble from the astral that are a lot more fun for the players to fight back against.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shrike30
post May 26 2006, 12:06 AM
Post #19


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,556
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Seattle
Member No.: 98



Runners getting out of control with chemical weapons is one of those things that'll invite a response eventually.

And by response, I don't mean things like three dudes showing up at their door with light pistols. Runners laugh at that kind of thing.

By response, I'm talking about something like they pulled in Hardwired where they launched a shaped charge at one of the character's apartments from a building across the street and destroyed most of it.

They want to play with big kid toys? That means playing with the big kids, eventually...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shotgun
post May 26 2006, 09:40 AM
Post #20


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 4
Joined: 24-May 06
Member No.: 8,598



QUOTE (NightHaunter)
By the same token, an astral form that is manifesting on the physical plane can be targeted by a physical caster with a mana spell.

Edit: Sorry Shotgun, I seem to have stolen your thred.

No worries about the hijack, i'm learning by lurking.

As an addition, if an astral mage is manifesting on the physical and someone slugs the area with a manaball the manifesting mage is going to be hit, yes? However, if it were a fireball or physical area spell then they wouldn't be affected?

And as manifesting mages can be targetted with mana spells this should mean that the control spells (control thoughts, influence etc) should be able to affect them.

Cheers
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Thanee
post May 26 2006, 10:41 AM
Post #21


jacked in
**********

Group: Admin
Posts: 7,744
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 463



QUOTE (Shotgun @ May 26 2006, 11:40 AM)
As an addition, if an astral mage is manifesting on the physical and someone slugs the area with a manaball the manifesting mage is going to be hit, yes?

Of course not!

A manifesting mage is perceived on the physical plane as an image, but the mage is not on the physical plane. Spells cast on the physical plane do not affect mages on the astral, only spells cast into the astral plane (i.e. from an astrally perceiving mage) do, but those won't affect targets on the physical plane then.

QUOTE
I have seen mention of the fact that Grounding is no longer available with spell-use although I cannot find ahywhere this is spelt out clearly. It simply doesn't seem to be mentioned as an option in the rules.


That's a pretty good indicator, that it isn't available, I'd say. :D

Rules from previous editions do not apply unless duplicated in a 4th edition book.

Bye
Thanee
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
NightHaunter
post May 26 2006, 02:13 PM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 360
Joined: 18-March 02
From: Plymouth UK.
Member No.: 2,408



QUOTE (Shotgun)
QUOTE (NightHaunter)
By the same token, an astral form that is manifesting on the physical plane can be targeted by a physical caster with a mana spell.

Edit: Sorry Shotgun, I seem to have stolen your thred.

No worries about the hijack, i'm learning by lurking.

As an addition, if an astral mage is manifesting on the physical and someone slugs the area with a manaball the manifesting mage is going to be hit, yes? However, if it were a fireball or physical area spell then they wouldn't be affected?

And as manifesting mages can be targetted with mana spells this should mean that the control spells (control thoughts, influence etc) should be able to affect them.

Cheers

Sorry bud thats wrong.
Im getting my editions in a muddle.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hyzmarca
post May 26 2006, 04:01 PM
Post #23


Midnight Toker
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 7,686
Joined: 4-July 04
From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop
Member No.: 6,456



QUOTE (Aaron)
QUOTE (NightHaunter @ May 24 2006, 08:56 AM)
With regards to "grounding" i'm considering allowing an astral form to cast a physical spells at a duel natured target or active focus. After all it seems that this should work.
Though I seem to remember a rule forbidding the use of physical spells while projecting.

Right. There are no physical spells in astral space because there's no physical anything in astral space. No objects, no physics. Just thought and emotion.

Except that there are physical objects on the astral plane in some places. The barrier between the astral plane and the physical plane is not inperminable. Certain metamagics, known only to IEs and GDs at this point, allow one to cross physically into the astral plane. The Dragon Heart's physical body exists on the alstral plane, for example. I'm prety sure that Burnout's does, too. Likewise, Target: Awakened Lands includes mention of what appear to be inanimate physical objects on the Astral Plane. While the Shadowtalk suggests that these are "ghosts" of inanimate objects there is nothing in the accompanying rules text that prevents them from being actual physical objects shifted to the astral plane. In fact, the rules state that they behave like physical objects.

The rules state that you can't effect an astral target with a physical spell because it has no physical presence but nothing should prevent casting a physical spell at a physical target on the astral plane.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GrinderTheTroll
post May 26 2006, 05:44 PM
Post #24


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,754
Joined: 9-July 04
From: Modesto, CA
Member No.: 6,465



[edit]Mis-quoted here. Sorry for the mess.[/edit]
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
GrinderTheTroll
post May 26 2006, 05:46 PM
Post #25


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,754
Joined: 9-July 04
From: Modesto, CA
Member No.: 6,465



QUOTE (Geekkake)
QUOTE (Aaron @ May 24 2006, 12:13 PM)
QUOTE (NightHaunter @ May 24 2006, 11:14 AM)
But how about a "grounding" rule that allows you to cast physical spells at duel natured targets from the astral plane?

Of couse it's house rule only.

For me, the grounding rule is gone, and good riddance. Having a fireball suddenly explode into the team with no warning from astral space is Not Fun.

Well, not for the PCs. The GM, on the other hand...

It's been gone since SR3, those of use who assumed it never left realized that it's never mentioned in SR3 (or SR4) so it doesn't exist past SR2.

I think at times it easier to come into a new version of an RPG with little knowledge of prior versions since you'll take the new version as Law instead of trying to fit SR4 into SR3.

We're all guilty of it, comparing SR3 to SR4 and although it helps fill in the missing bits until more rules become available but it's more of hinderance at times I feel.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 27th October 2020 - 01:27 AM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.