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#1
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 917 Joined: 5-September 03 From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Member No.: 5,585 ![]() |
Ok, after re-reading the 3rd edition core rules, thoroughly, I have a rough price for a magician setting up astral wards:
100 nuyen/hour/magician. So, how much for an elemental bound to guard a location for a year and a day? And how much for a permanent astral ward/barrier? For elementals, I thought :nuyen: = Force x Force x 1000. [ Spoiler ] Permanent Astral Ward/Barrier :nuyen: = Force x Force x 500. This should also reflect the time spent setting up the area etc - if a masked one was setup, I'd expect the price to increase to 600-750 multiplier. Now, putting this into "real-life" TM terms: -Assuming a straight cash-for-karma ratio of :nuyen: 2500 = 1 Karma -Person setting this up is alone (Ie, no magic assistance) -Materials for summoning are part of the fee This works out to be... [ Spoiler ] Of course, the usual give-and-take of bidding/negotiation would affect the final price. But the average magic-user come-Summoner would own any corp negotiation expert when it comes to Charisma-based skills..hmmm... So tell me that I've missed an easy calculation in the damn sourcebook and point it out for me please :) -Tir. |
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#2
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
Regarding Elementals, I don't think the price will scale that way at all. Sure, for a high-force Elemental the initial Drain is hefty, but ultimately the Mage pays just as high a long-term cost for a Force 1 Elemental as for a Force 16 (barring permanent injury or death on summoning)—for that year and day, they're down one on their maximum number of Elementals. Maybe something like ¥200,000 + Force*Force*1,000 + materials?
As for the permanent ward, I doubt anyone will offer them—if you note, the price is ¥100 per hour per magician to maintain the ward, not to set it up. Recurring payments > one-time payments. ~J |
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#3
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 917 Joined: 5-September 03 From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Member No.: 5,585 ![]() |
Uh, now I'm actually READING the damn books! Mits, page 98. Binding Elemental Guards "Once an elemental is bound in this manner, it no longer counts against the Mage's charisma limit for bound elementals." So, no problems there, thank god. Say Joe-average Elf wagemage can whip up a Level 7 elemental every week, all he needs is to get at least 1 success so he can make sure the bosses love-nest is secured from prying eyes/extraction teams. Why permanent Wards? Well, say you have a 2 magicians, total magic is 12. if you have 2 people, that's :nuyen: 200/hour For level of ward, let's say 9 (Cost so far, only 1800) That's nine fraggin' hours, then they roll 2 x 6d6. (Magic attribute) From The 3rd Edition Core rules, Page 174 Wards "The number of successes determines the number of weeks that the ward stays up." The mages don't sit there in the role of reactive armour, that's Astral patrolling :) No, these guys get in tune with the area to be warded and after a while... Finishing up on their non-stop day, they look at each other in unspoken query. With a shrug, they turn to the manager and say, "Sorry chummer, you'll see us in a week, you know how it is." (I was averaging 1.5 successes with 2 x 6d6) Most companies hate variables like this - those mages could be doing something else, like enchanting :) The smart or magic-heavy companies would splash out, once, on some nth-level initiated security guru (Or team of them) who has the knowledge, the specific foci, l33t skillz, etc. and cover a much bigger area at the same time. Sure, the two magicians are fine as a stop-gap method or low-level (ie: 4-6) wards, but if you want an area to not really show up as being protected, just hire the big gun and pay the man for some smoking 12th level masked wards. But did you find some rules apart from the ones I quoted? Anyone? -Tir |
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#4
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
Wheep, I thought I'd checked that. Regardless I think you're lowballing the price.
From SR3, page 174:
Note that it says nothing about time spent creating the ward, which I think you're assuming. For every hour the ward is up (and probably the initial warding ritual as well), it's 100 nuyen/hour. There's very little reason to give up a ¥72,000/month revenue stream for a one-time payment, especially when you consider that it take a little bit of who you are and never gives it back. ~J |
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#5
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 ![]() |
"100 nuyen per hour per magician" is a really weird way of putting it if it's per hour the ward is up and not per hour the magician(s) work. That'd also mean all wards are the same price, which doesn't make sense.
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#6
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
Yeah, the price thing is weird. I had thought it was per force-magician-hour, but apparently not. As for the phrasing, I do agree it's odd—but not nearly as odd as the two sentences above if they're trying to say that it's just for the setup and maintenance.
Edit: wait a minute, that's not true. I just realized that by the book nothing requires the people maintaining the ward to be the same people who created it. Still, though, the rituals are identical… Here's a question. If Mage A creates a ward, his signature is on it, correct? Then Mage B performs a maintenance ritual one day later. Whose signature is on it? Both of theirs? That seems simple enough. However, assume they each got one success. One week later, the part of the ward-sustaining that A did is now done. Is A's signature still on the ward? Argh. My brain hurts. ~J |
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#7
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 ![]() |
Unlikely. There'll certainly be demand for it - because it is cheaper in the long run - so somebody will supply it... possibly somebody who had no hope of getting the job otherwise. And because somebody will supply it, everybody will supply it, because getting paid once is better than not getting paid at all because the customer went with someone who'd give him what he wanted. |
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#8
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 ![]() |
Plus, a permanent ward is only permanent until destroyed, right?
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#9
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 ![]() |
"maintaining" can also mean "updating" or "repairing" which is what it likely means in this case: 100 per hour spent building the ward, then when the ward's about to wear off, 100 per hour to re-make it.
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#10
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 ![]() |
That's my read, too.
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#11
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Manus Celer Dei ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 ![]() |
I don't read it that way, mostly because while "updating" and "repairing" both fall under reasonable synonyms of "maintaining" "creating" does not.
~J |
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#12
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 917 Joined: 5-September 03 From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Member No.: 5,585 ![]() |
Any way, thank you all for the discussion - I think I'll run with the numbers I generated simply because:
A: If you can summon elementals, chances are you ALSO have a decent Etiquette/Negotiation skill. Those extra 5% can make a hell of a difference... :) B: I'm going for the lowest possible price here. Sure, if you have the Mojo-rep of, say, Hestaby, I'd expect sky-high funds in return. For John Wagemage setting up wards, he may be instructed to "go soft/slow" so that the company has a constant income, but it IS a devilrat-eat-dog world and the person who can throw up the best, the fastest and the strongest tends to get a little bonus in the mission pay. As for Joe Shadowmage the last thing he's going to want to do is set up mega-wards (unless masked) in his squat in Richmond. Sure, you may be able to get away with having double digit wards, but who in the Shadowrunner community would be able to swing it? (Ignoring Drakes and assorted Munchkin) Sure, you may have :nuyen:1.4 million of assorted cyber in your buddies, but the Star do astral observation (and send out Watchers, is there a ruling on privacy violations with these?) and if one of the mages manages to find a "super permanent ward" they will mark it down on a map somewhere and send a drone over occasionally to observe it. Yes, I know that someone will have "tEh L33t5t EvAR Batcave!!11!!" -type safehouse with a summoning circle that's a kilometer wide with wards to match, but I like some sort of gritty realism and the soul-crushing grind... It makes the players more desperate :) -Tir. |
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#13
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Midnight Toker ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 ![]() |
Don't forget that you have to have someone on call to inform the client if the ward is breached. Consider this scenario: You pay a freelance mage for the creation of a ward but don't pay to have it monitered. Next Week, a munchy shapeshifter assassin named Stripper beats your ward to death on her way to kill you. The magician you payed to set up the ward knows that some very bad is about to happen to you. You, on the other hand, are completely obliviou because you have no way to moniter the ward.
It is possible that "maintaining" the ward includes informing the owner and the authorities if it is breached or destroyed which would require being in contact 24/7. If it doesn't then such ward would be rather useless. |
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