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> How would clubs and such react to cyberweapons?
ryanstone
post May 25 2006, 10:06 PM
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How do all of you handle a night club or other establishment with a no weapons policy when it comes to players with spurs, claws or other cyberweapons?
Naturally, I think that they would say "No Admittence" if the weapons detector pics up the gear. However, another part of me doesn't want to limit a character participation due to their cyber gear. Does this just "come with the territory" for character who choose to go the cyberweapon route?

Thanks in advance for your comments,
Ryan
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Squinky
post May 25 2006, 10:09 PM
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It would have to depend on the situation, but I would say most places would go the no admitance route, unless they were bribed or good friends with the character.

If it was a cyber-weapon in an obvious cyber-limb, then maybe allow its removal/re-installation by the character if they have the appropriate skill.
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Kanada Ten
post May 25 2006, 10:11 PM
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Pretty much comes with the territory. The runner either gets a really good security permit, disguises the cyberweapon, bribes the bouncer, hacks the scanner, or makes sure the policy changes before he arrives.
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mdynna
post May 25 2006, 10:17 PM
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Cyberweapons are a double-edged sword that way. Their advantage is you always have them if you need them, and their disadvantage is that you can't leave them behind if you don't need them.
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Teulisch
post May 25 2006, 10:21 PM
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If your team cannot come to the meet, and get in without causing a problem, why the hell would i want to hire you?

getting to the meet is the most basic step of the run, and a good way to weed out the very stupid. I would expect any club or resteraunt to have a cyberscanner. these things detect weapons and gear, as well as cyber. While this may limit what the johnson can bring (good for keeping the bodygaurd cost low), a smart mr. Johnson will bribe the club (if his corp dosent own it already!), and have as much heavy support as he feels he needs- possibly with extra thugs out of sight in the next room.

meeting in clubs is good, because it reduces how much you need to worry about security. It dosent help much against mages, technomancers, adepts, and those without scanable illegal cyberware, but at least they wont have any big guns with them.

easiest way in? physical illusion, that your cyber-monster is pure meat. the cyberscanner is basicaly a camera. if it dont see it, it wont think about it.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post May 25 2006, 10:42 PM
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Normally, cyberweapons are F(orbidden), so they are quite risky to 'carry' around at all...
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Shrike30
post May 25 2006, 11:00 PM
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Another option might be having "plugs" at the club, depending on it's nature. Lean over to the bouncer before you go through the scanner, slip him a hundred, let him know what's going on, and he'll take you into the side room, install a nano-block into the barrel/slot/spur-socket keyed to something they keep at the door, and you can go in.

They probably would want you to empty the mag on a cybergun, too.
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Nasrudith
post May 26 2006, 03:58 AM
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Oddly enough only forbidden, ones are meele. :wobble:. For the clubs, they'll probably make them take down a deposit for unlinked containment manacles. (you know the things that disable cyberweapons) So they can still pick up their drink, dance, and other things that they came to the fragging club for in the first place.
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Serbitar
post May 26 2006, 11:33 AM
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This "everything is scanned" philosophy is kind of destroying the original meaning of hidden cyberweapons. If you cant hide them anymore, why have them at all?

So I would invent somefluff about why hidden cyberware is harder to detect and such. (like, such cyberware is built to be detected much harder, because of its obvious popurse of being secret and such. I would make it also much ahrder to detect cyberware inside a cyberlimb).
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Edward
post May 26 2006, 11:45 AM
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[quote = Teulisch]
If your team cannot come to the meet, and get in without causing a problem, why the hell would i want to hire you?
[/quote]
a stealth job doesn’t need every character to enter the target facility.

It would be quite reasonable to hire a team for a zero profile infiltration run where one member is a troll with 2 obvious cyber arms with non retractable spurs. You just have to trust that the troll will not be performing that part of the run. Buy refusing to hire them if they can’t get to the meat without causing a fuss you loose access to the entire teem, including a face that can get in anywhere and that very troll’s hacking skills that would give the face the ID she needs to get past the ID checks.


Also in SR3 at least there was a fair chance that a cyber wear scanner would not pick up a cyber weapon, especially if it was Alfa grade or better.

Edward
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hyzmarca
post May 26 2006, 12:01 PM
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Don't ask. Don't tell. Don't geek anybody. There should be some clubs that pride themselves on not caring what patrons bring in.
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Moon-Hawk
post May 26 2006, 02:57 PM
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QUOTE (Serbitar)
(like, such cyberware is built to be detected much harder, because of its obvious popurse of being secret and such. I would make it also much ahrder to detect cyberware inside a cyberlimb).

Hear, hear!
'Ware in a limb should be very difficult to detect.
Also, I would like to see an option for "disguised" cyberware. I'm thinking of the cyberware scan in Johnny Mnemonic where the scanner detects his headware memory as a dyslexia prosthesis.
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Kanada Ten
post May 26 2006, 03:56 PM
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I once proposed using nanotattos placed in a specific pattern to alter the cyberscanner results. Really, a disguise test should work by the rules, neh?
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ryanstone
post May 26 2006, 05:46 PM
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I'm running On The Run for a group of new SR players. The meet is at Penumbra which has a Rating 3 MAD detector. Not a very stiff rating, but I could get lucky. I'm just not sure how I should handle a lucky roll on my part. The guards will take a bribe if the character can talk them into it. But then we run into the Samurai character and his inability to socially interact on even the most basic level.
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Shrike30
post May 26 2006, 05:50 PM
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There's about 6 different methods of bypassing the guards in the book, including reminding the players that if they get really unprofessional about things, they just won't get hired again. At absolute worst, they could put the character outside and have him "cover their exit."

Or they could have the face say "Hey, omae... I got 600 :nuyen: with your name on it, if you can get me and my buds here past this heinous line..."
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Protagonist
post May 26 2006, 06:32 PM
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QUOTE (Teulisch)
I would expect any club or resteraunt to have a cyberscanner.

I certainly wouldn't. How many clubs nowadays actually bother to pat you down for concealed weapons? It of course, depends on the club, but many will simply let you walk in (it depend on how you look, etc.). By having to scan for cyberware/weapons, it creates a large hassel for your customer base, and would alienate them, as it takes up time and would cause the line to get into the club/restaurant to go even slower.

Many establishments would in fact probably pride themselves on customer privacy.
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Aaron
post May 26 2006, 06:39 PM
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QUOTE (Protagonist)
I certainly wouldn't. How many clubs nowadays actually bother to pat you down for concealed weapons?

[...]

Many establishments would in fact probably pride themselves on customer privacy.

I dunno. A passive scanner, such as a cyberware scanner or a MAD scanner, is pretty unobtrusive. And really cheap (75¥ per rating!). It might be worth it, even in high-class establishments, to have a scanner checking out the patrons and discretely informing whomever is in charge of security, just in case. Not necessarily barring entry, just giving a heads-up to the place's security.
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Squinky
post May 26 2006, 06:58 PM
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Comparing security needs between between real life clubs and shadowrun clubs isn't a fair or accurate comparison. Real life clubs don't need to worry about shadowrunners at all.

Most scanners wouldn't bother anyone, and most folks would prefer to have them at any club they visit I am sure.
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Shrike30
post May 26 2006, 07:02 PM
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A lot of clubs are starting to have metal detectors. There's a club in Seattle that's had... 4? ... shootings in the last 3 years, and a post-rave "zombie" party recently got shot up by a pretty unbalanced individual. I have a feeling that clubgoers may feel slightly better knowing they're going through a metal detector, as opposed to not.

It's not like the clubs are going to lose a lot of business saying "we make an effort to help our clubgoers not get shot when they come here."
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Protagonist
post May 26 2006, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE (Squinky @ May 26 2006, 01:58 PM)
Comparing security needs between between real life clubs and shadowrun clubs isn't a fair or accurate comparison. Real life clubs don't need to worry about shadowrunners at all.

How many shadowrunners do you think there are? I guarentee clubs in the shadowrun world don't worry about them either, and if it's a runner bar or club, the establishment is going to be very descreet. A much larger worry for most clubs would be local gangs.

I could see the passive system that gives a heads-up to a bouncer, except that there's problems with that. A MAD simply detects the presence of metal. This can make a MAD near useless in a club enviroment, as all sorts of things could set them off. Programs or security personnel would have to be purchased/hired to monitor the equipment as well.

Both MADs and cyberware scanners are restricted. Licenses must be obtained, and I assume that for public use like a club or restaurant it would be a hassle, and of course costs more money. When you include the program/personnel the cost increases even further. It's an expense most wouldn't bother with unless they had had some bad problems in the past or were extremely paranoid. For the most part, I don't really see clubs and restaurants bothering with it.
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Shrike30
post May 26 2006, 08:00 PM
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I can see clubs and restaurants (at least, the kinds that aren't in Z-zones already) bothering with it all the time. Who wants to deal with a drunk, cybered-up, BTL-scorched asshole waving a submachinegun around every 4-5 days when a real quick trip through a cyber-scanner (which could also be used for recognition of devices like submachineguns, since it maps shapes) would solve most of these problems?

You get your club shot up a couple of times, it's going to cost you a hell of a lot more than a couple of extra guys inside the door running a coat-and-gun check.
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kigmatzomat
post May 26 2006, 09:58 PM
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QUOTE (ryanstone)
I'm running On The Run for a group of new SR players. The meet is at Penumbra which has a Rating 3 MAD detector. Not a very stiff rating, but I could get lucky. I'm just not sure how I should handle a lucky roll on my part. The guards will take a bribe if the character can talk them into it. But then we run into the Samurai character and his inability to socially interact on even the most basic level.

IIRC, a Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) will recognize the presence of metal typically indicative of a weapon or cyberarm but will not be able to tell if a cyberarm has a built-in weapon.

A full cyberware scanner should have a penalty for identifying devices inside a cyberarm; especially one crammed chock full of gear. If the structural members of the arm are opaque to the scanner you can conceal the weapon within. Alternately, spurs & the like should be fairly easy to obfuscate.
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phasmaphobic
post May 26 2006, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE (ryanstone)
I'm running On The Run for a group of new SR players. The meet is at Penumbra which has a Rating 3 MAD detector...

Why any club would want to scan to see who is potentially bringing in their own magnetic detectors is beyond me. =)
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Protagonist
post May 26 2006, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE (Shrike30)
Who wants to deal with a drunk, cybered-up, BTL-scorched asshole waving a submachinegun around every 4-5 days

Why would it happen every 4-5 days? Just because Shadowrun is dystopian, doesn't mean that civilization has collapsed.

I hate saying this in relation to something where people sit around and play make-believe, but get real. Realistically, how often is someone going to just run into a place and start shooting it up? Maybe it's often in Z-zones and other similar crime ridden areas, but elsewhere? I'd say rarely if ever.

Many people are also, quite simply, greedy, and would try to cut back on costs as much as possible, to generate a higher profit. I'm not saying places simply aren't going to have such measures, just that the majority of such establishments wouldn't, especially if they're just your local watering hole, club, etc. If it's just your run-of-the-mill restaurant/club/bar, they might simply not be able to afford the additional personell. It's just not viable. If it's a large chain of clubs, or exclusive/members only, then the extra money would probably be dropped for better security to insure the saftey of their customers/clients.
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Shrike30
post May 26 2006, 10:39 PM
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I think it was the Neo-Anarchist's Guide To Real Life that talked about the kind of security they've got in a McHughs (read: McDonalds). This included several armored/armed, highly visible guards, and a restaurant designed to not only provide them with good fields of fire, but built using materials in the chairs and tables that would not provide cover for any potential targets. Safety while you eat was one of their selling points.

People are greedy, right? Here's your club, sitting on a corner downtown making money. There's another club, across the street, with a bigass line of customers outside of it, but since their line is longer, it's obvious they're making more money. What's the easy solution? Pay some gangers a few hundred nuyen to walk into the place and spray some lead into the air, or start a fight and stab a couple of people... generally give the place a rep for being a rough establishment.

At the same time, you stick an extra bouncer on your door, add a "coat check" right before the doorway marked "Milli-wave Technologies," and get on the news talking about what a poor job the other guy did protecting his customers, and how you can't imagine not caring for their well-being when they're in your establishment with something as simple as checking for firearms at the front door. Instant money for the greedy clubowner.

We play a game where the characters shoot people in the face for money. Someone hires these people...

I guess the baseline here would be a bouncing staff. Any place that's going to have a bouncer or two would probably have a scanner built into the door, and either a "no weapons" policy, or at least a place where you can check 'em at the door. Even if there isn't a bouncing staff, it'd be an investment in the safety of the business owner and his staff to have a scanning door simply to let them know "hey, those guys in the long coats over there have subguns in their armpits," and give him the option of mashing the PanicButton if the bar's PAN ID check doesn't come back something like "Off-duty Lone Star."
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