Target Numbers Systems Options

[Dv84good]

I am wonder what people think are the pros and cons of the fixed and variable target number systems?

[Jaid]

i prefer variable. it allows for things to be incredibly difficult and unlikely, but never impossible.

that being said, i feel SR3 allowed the TN to change too freely... some things should have been handled in ways other than changing the TN IMO, so that you don't end up with crazy TNs that no one can reasonably expect to hit all the time.

(i mean, if we're talking about your being grappled and trying to shoot a gun at extreme range and you're blinded and drunk, then sure that should be almost totally impossible... but just because you've scratched your knee, the difficulty shouldn't go from 1/2 to 1/3, and let's not even consider the possibilities of things like chaotic world, which can basically make a group of people totally useless).

so i would say variable TNs, but probably not the SR3 system exactly.

[eidolon]

Voted variable, which is not a good word to describe the results you'll get by posting this thread in the SR4 forums.

[Eryk the Red]

I'm forced to wonder, in discussing target numbers, given the choices of "fixed" and "variable", what exactly could be "other"? Some sort of quantum target number?

Anyway, I actually prefer fixed numbers in practice. As far as raw rules theory, I think variable target numbers are best. They allow considerably greater variation in probability. The problem, theoretically, with fixed TNs is that 2 successes is always the same amount less likely than one success. All that said, I've found that the games I've played using fixed TNs flow much better. Old World of Darkness games got bogged down very easily, whereas, for one reason or another, nWoD games are very smooth. Same for Shadowrun. My limited experience with pre-SR4 Shadowrun was a struggle between me and the system. SR4 is much easier for me to work with, in part at least due to fixed TNs.

[James McMurray]

I null voted because they're both good. SR3 and D&D work well with variable TNs. Sr4 ad nWoD work well with fixed TNs. I'm slightly in favor of fixed TNs because as Eryk said they flow faster. Unlike some people I like that fixed TNs can make some things impossible. While theoreticaly all things are possible, that grappled long range blind and drunk shot is so incredibly improbable that there's really no reason to roll dice, hence the game moves faster.

[mfb]

the problem, to me, is that the grappled + long range + drunk shot is only impossible until you breach a certain level of ability. at that point, you suddenly have a 30% chance of making the shot, and the probability only goes up from there. under a variable TN system, the shot remains extremely improbable all the way from 1 die up to any conceivable level of ability.

[James McMurray]

You have a 30% chance of getting a hit. You don't have a 30% chance of making the shot. One hit on a test is rarely success.

[Tarantula]

The problem mfb and other rules-lawyer-y types (including myself on occasion) have is that nowhere does it tell you that the threshold is higher than 1. It just says "have the GM decide" and leaves it at that. Thusly, the "by the rules" answer is that you only need one hit.

[mfb]

the system still breaks down past a certain level of ability, McMurray. thresholds just raise the level you need to breach before the 'impossible' becomes trivial.

[Tarantula]

Exactly, therefore, as long as you keep raising the thresholds with the level of 'impossibility' then everything stays hunky dory.

[hobgoblin]

and then we are back at the silly armsrace that was high skill/karma SR3...

to me, the game should be so that, unless we are moving into the realm of action movies or comics, in no way should a person be able to make a shot while drunk and being grappled. its just so far out there that it may well be a deus ex machina moment...

[James McMurray]

Being grappled stops you from making a shot anyway. It was an example someone used, but it isn't a valid example because if you're grappled you can't take any actions that require physical movement, including aiming a gun.

Average person: 2 dice. can't hit a small target to save his life

Average Shadowrunner: 8 dice. Can hit stuff but when the crap hits the fan he's in trouble.

Gun Bunny: Average 15 dice. He's a bad mamma jamma, capable of hitting things in the craziest of circumstances.

Twinked Gun bunny Adept: 20+ dice. His ability to shoot things is magical.

As long as thresholds and dice penalties are scaled to the task, making the impossible possible can be done but not with ease. If they want to shoot something while drunk and blind they're at somewhere between -8 and -12 dice depending on how drunk they are. To average people that's impossible.

The gun bunnies can do it but they've got the benefit of cyberware and magic. Their smartlink isn't drunk, and their agility is such that being drunk isn't as much of an impairment to them. With the adept it's even better, becuse his smartlink isn't drunk and neither is his magic. He slurs a thought of "shoot that bastard" and his "guiding force" or whatever he calls his magic takes over and tries the shot for him. It's working alone, so isn't as capable.

I'm willing to bet that if you dig through police case files you'll find at quite a few cases of drunken armed guys managing to get a shot off while being wrestled to the ground by a cop. Some of those will hit his grappler of another cop. Some of them (the critical glitches) will hit the drunk guy.

[Teulisch]

well, i voted fixed. i do have an idea for getting 'other' to work however.

Simply put, you TN is based on your skill. this way, a skilled person gets more hits than an unskilled person using a higher stat, even if dice pools are the same.

So, unskilled hits on a 6.
skill 1-4 hits on a 5 or 6, as normal. (or when no skill is required, like will and body)
skill 5-6 hits on a 4, 5, or 6 (possibly include specific non-skilled rolls that include a specific positive quality)
skill 7 hits on a 3, 4, 5, or 6.

5-6 is limited at chargen, and you CANNOT do this with skillwires. so its balanced in that any starting character may only have 1 or 2 rolls where they get this bonus.

7 is best in the world, and only 1 skill of this level per person. so thats balanced, and explains why fastjack is so bloody good. It makes having a high skill actualy mean something, other than just more dice.

So the TN is fixed, but what that fixed TN is depends on your skill level.
we could further balance this, by saying you cannot use a 'skill' level higher than your final modified dicepool. If your making a roll with only 4 dice, then its 5 and 6 only.

[James McMurray]

S you roll your skill in dice and get more hits with a higher skill? Way too poerful at the high end IMO. A 4 skill can expect 1.3 hits. 5 = 2.5 hits. 7 = 4.6. If you're rolling stat + skill like in SR4 or there are ways to get extra dice (i.e. smartlink) the disparity is even greater.

[mfb]

you'll find a lot of crazy things if you dig through old police files. most of them are covered by Edge. that's another argument, though.

the problem with fixed TNs is the sharp rate of change in probability. you go from 0% (no dice) to 30% (one die) with the application of the smallest possible modifier (+/-1 die). higher and lower thresholds do not lessen the steepness of this jump, they just raise or lower the point at which it occurs. there is zero differentiation below that point--a guy who's never picked up a gun before and a guy who's trained every day of his life have exactly the same chance of success, if they're both below that threshold. meanwhile, a third guy, who has trained every day of his life and has a smartlink (or other means of acquiring a small bonus to his dice pool) has stands a reasonable chance of making his shot. everything above that point is just gravy, be it adept powers or whatever.

[James McMurray]

So the fact that there's a difference between a newb, a veteran, a cybered veteran, and an adept cybered veteran is a bad thing?

[mfb]

no, the fact that there is no difference between them, if the threshold is high enough, is a bad thing.

[hobgoblin]

and there are points where not amount of skill and gear can help, thats when edge or pure luck kicks in...

but noone should rely on luck for long, unless its that welldressed disney duck...

if you like, have the them roll edge dice if they drop below 0 normal dice, but have each hit only count for 1/2. so that you need 2 hits for each effective hit :P

[mfb]

eh. i don't think there's any point where ability completely stops being relevant.

[hobgoblin]

maybe not, but there is a point where its so minimal that it plays second string to dumb luck.

but each their own.

i think this debate have gone the rounds atleast ones before...

btw, mfb. sometimes i wonder why your posting on the SR4 part of the forum. from what i gather you dont like the new system what so ever...

[James McMurray]

IIRC he doesn't even play SR4, he just comes here to gripe about how bad it is.

[BlueRondo]

I'm going to agree with McCurray that, as long as the proper threshold is set, the impossible/piece-of-cake leap I think mfb is talking about is not too much of a problem.

The book suggests a threshold of 4 for "extreme" tasks, such as the one being discussed. According to Shemhazai's odds calculator, the chances for success on a 4 threshold test are:

3 Dice=Impossible
4 Dice=1%
5 Dice=5%
6 Dice=10%
7 Dice=17%
8 Dice=26%
9 Dice=35%
Etc.

So going from impossible (3 dice) to possible (4+ dice) does not immediately give you a huge leap in success chance.

If you don't like the idea of impossibly, there's always the option of not modifying the dice pool and increasing the threshold instead. Now, as Tarantula said, some people may not like this too much because it's not the "official rule" (even though it's suggested in the rulebook.) Personally, I think that if one doesn't take advantage of this alternative, he is missing out on part of the system's versatility.

[mfb]

one might ask why a question regarding dice systems is in the SR4 forum, when SR4 has a dice system already in place. i'm going to answer this question for the last fucking time: i read and post to the SR4 forums because i like SR. i am not pleased with the game mechanics of the new edition. if you don't like that fact, or would like to take issue with it, or if you have any questions regarding this statement, i invite you to bite my cock. if you're not a fan of having that thrown in your face, i suggest you stop throwing the fact that i don't choose to play SR4 in mine. moving on.

[James McMurray]

Little teste lately?

[blakkie]