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> Stealth program and hacking
DarkCrisis
post May 30 2006, 12:27 AM
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After my last game I don't see how only using the stealth program rating is fair.

Say the node has a Firewall of 5 and Analyze of 5 that's 10 dice.

The Hacker has a Stealth program of 5. And Hacking 5 plus Exploit 5. Thats 10 dice.

No to hack a 3 system 3 Firewall node for an Admin account (+6) (which you pretty much need to do anything important) is 12 success total.

The Hacker has 10 dice to get 12 success.

While the node has 10 dice to get 5 success to detect the Hacker. Just 5.

That's insane.

Thoughts?
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Edward
post May 30 2006, 01:09 AM
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Well the hacker has another 2 dice for hot sim and conceivably another 2 for cracker and another 2 for specialization. And you can have a couple of agents assist you

You just have to accept that if you want to jam into a secure system with admin access your going to set of an alarm unless you spend edge to get rerolls or extra dice.

Edward
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The_Eyes
post May 30 2006, 02:03 AM
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The 12 isn't a TN; it's an Opposed Test.

So it's Hacker with 10 dice (plus mods for Hot Sim etc) vs. 12 dice for the system.

Stealth is a TN; the rest are opposed tests. Except for the exceptions.
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Ranneko
post May 30 2006, 02:03 AM
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Makes sense to me, if you want to get in on Admin access find a way to seriously boost stealth and/or exploit, and/or don't hack in on the fly.

If you take your time the system gets 1 chance to spot you.
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Aaron
post May 30 2006, 02:21 AM
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If you hack in hard and fast, you'll most likely be noticed.

If you hack in slow and romantic like, you've got a lot better chance.

Usually, I only hack in fast when I need to, usually against cybered-up opponents. In those cases, I don't particularly care if they find out what I'm doing, because shortly thereafter I'm shutting off their eyes or something.
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Edward
post May 30 2006, 03:30 AM
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Its not an apposed test, it’s a threshold, you need 12 successes. With 10 dice it is imposable to get in with only one pass.

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Jaid
post May 30 2006, 03:55 AM
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they only get 1 success if you hack in the slow way, no matter how long it takes you. i believe that's the point that is being made.

and btw, you don't need admin level access to do everything... it just makes it easier. if you are willing to make hacking tests every time you want to do something your account doesn't authorise you for, then you don't need an admin account at all.
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Backgammon
post May 30 2006, 04:29 AM
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QUOTE (DarkCrisis)
After my last game I don't see how only using the stealth program rating is fair.

Say the node has a Firewall of 5 and Analyze of 5 that's 10 dice.

The Hacker has a Stealth program of 5. And Hacking 5 plus Exploit 5. Thats 10 dice.

No to hack a 3 system 3 Firewall node for an Admin account (+6) (which you pretty much need to do anything important) is 12 success total.

The Hacker has 10 dice to get 12 success.

While the node has 10 dice to get 5 success to detect the Hacker. Just 5.

That's insane.

Thoughts?

Your example is flawed: the node cannot run Analyze 5 on System 3. The program rating drops to 3.

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-X-
post May 30 2006, 04:29 AM
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QUOTE (Aaron)
If you hack in hard and fast, you'll most likely be noticed.

If you hack in slow and romantic like, you've got a lot better chance.

Usually, I only hack in fast when I need to, usually against cybered-up opponents. In those cases, I don't particularly care if they find out what I'm doing, because shortly thereafter I'm shutting off their eyes or something.

That sounds like an amazingly cool character! So you stop mid-combat to perform the delicate cybersurgery required to break into their entirely non-wireless cyberware?! Awesome! Sick and twisted, but awesome.
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Edward
post May 30 2006, 04:56 AM
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Cyber eyes are usually wireless. Or at least skin linked to the comlink where the user is paranoid.

If you have a smart gun link in your eye you need a connection to your gun. If you don’t have a smart gun link you still need your eyes connected to your pan to view AR threw them.

And I am assuming that buy eyes he also means AR contacts or AR glasses, whatever may be present.

Edward
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-X-
post May 30 2006, 05:16 AM
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QUOTE (Edward)
Cyber eyes are usually wireless. Or at least skin linked to the comlink where the user is paranoid.

If you have a smart gun link in your eye you need a connection to your gun. If you don’t have a smart gun link you still need your eyes connected to your pan to view AR threw them.

And I am assuming that buy eyes he also means AR contacts or AR glasses, whatever may be present.

Edward

If you don't have a Smartgun system that transmits information through an induction pad or across the surface of your skin to the receiver then presumably they could mess with your Smartgun information.

Knowing this, it would probably be best to entirely limit acceptable input from your Gun to your Display to nothing more than small text in the corner of your vision and the virtual laser dot indicating where the weapon is pointed. That way if you do get hacked the worst that happens is your display that lists range and available ammo says "Screw you hippie!" instead of what it's supposed to display and the indicator flashes all over your field of vision.

But why in the world would you tie that system into the one that controls whether your eyes are on or not?

As for contacts and goggles and the like, not everything is wireless. Most of these devices could be set to receive information sent along the user's skin. So only their wireless input would be vulnerable to tampering.

I never got the impression that EVERYTHING was suddenly wireless. That would just be really stupid. Why leave your cyberarm vulnerable to attack if you don't need to? You need a DNI for most cybernetics to work without having to essentially Rig your own arm. Of all equipment in 2070 cyberware is probably second only to bioware as equipment LEAST likely to be wireless. Not being wireless gives you full protection from hackers at what is typically zero cost since most such cyberware includes a DNI in the first place.
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Tarantula
post May 30 2006, 07:37 AM
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Remember, you can't just "set" something to be skinlinked, you have to pay the 50¥ per item to make it skin link enabled. Alternately, realize that any wireless cyberware has a signal of 0, so to hack directly into it you would need your commlink to be within 1 meter of said ware.
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-X-
post May 30 2006, 08:05 AM
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QUOTE (Tarantula)
Remember, you can't just "set" something to be skinlinked, you have to pay the 50¥ per item to make it skin link enabled. Alternately, realize that any wireless cyberware has a signal of 0, so to hack directly into it you would need your commlink to be within 1 meter of said ware.

Skin linking sounds exactly like one of those 'optional' features that comes standard on high end brand name gear so they can happily list it in the ARO explaining why it costs so much.

Now, if you pick your 'ware up on the super cheap (but still new) I could see it missing plenty of those options and having nothing but a pitiful wireless connection. Or if you go even cheaper from that brand you've never heard before it might not have any connection at all (NI not included, oops).

At least in games I run hacking into someone's activated wireless commlink is one thing (very doable), hacking into their implanted cybernetics is another thing entirely (Probably not going to happen without being at point blank range with cybernetic diagnostics gear or actual surgery.)
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Edward
post May 30 2006, 08:30 AM
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“If you don't have a Smart gun system that transmits information through an induction pad or across the surface of your skin to the receiver then presumably they could mess with your Smart gun information.” The smart gun system is not isolated within the cyber eye, you hack in you can play with it all. Induction pads are not even available any more.

“As for contacts and goggles and the like, not everything is wireless. Most of these devices could be set to receive information sent along the user's skin. So only their wireless input would be vulnerable to tampering.”

Most people use wireless systems, this is what the book says, only paranoid people use a skin link that is les convenient and more expensive than having a 1 meter radius PAN. Outside that distance there is no increased risk.

In order to view AR your vision system (be it cyber eyes, glasses or contacts) must be connected to your comlink, and your comlink must be turned on, practically everybody uses AR, security personnel need it to reseve team communications. Thus you can hack into there comlink and from there have instant access to there vision system regardless of buy what method they connect the devices.

Things like cyber arms I agree, there is no good reason to have a cyber limb on wireless. Unless it has something init that wants to be wireless. One description was that you can control a limb while it is not attached to you, this only makes sense if the limbs where going to get shot of regularly (without being rendered inoperable) or could be removed esaly in the field.

I am seeing an interesting character with a collection of limbs, obvious and disguised that are used for different operations.

Edward
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DarkCrisis
post May 30 2006, 01:56 PM
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QUOTE (Edward)
Well the hacker has another 2 dice for hot sim and conceivably another 2 for cracker and another 2 for specialization. And you can have a couple of agents assist you

You just have to accept that if you want to jam into a secure system with admin access your going to set of an alarm unless you spend edge to get rerolls or extra dice.

Edward

Cracker?

And Agent's roll to hack combine with yours?

What do you specialize in? Whats it called?

----

And as mentioned by another, my example was flawed but it was just an example. point being the node gets an easier time to see you.



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The Jopp
post May 30 2006, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (DarkCrisis)
QUOTE (Edward @ May 29 2006, 08:09 PM)
Well the hacker has another 2 dice for hot sim and conceivably another 2 for cracker and another 2 for specialization. And you can have a couple of agents assist you

You just have to accept that if you want to jam into a secure system with admin access your going to set of an alarm unless you spend edge to get rerolls or extra dice.

Edward

Cracker?

And Agent's roll to hack combine with yours?

What do you specialize in? Whats it called?

----

And as mentioned by another, my example was flawed but it was just an example. point being the node gets an easier time to see you.

Hacking 6 add specialization with Exploit (+2) add Codeslinger (Exploit) quality for another +2 and then you run rating 5 program and Hotsim (+2)

A total of 6+2+2+2+5= 17D6 on an exploit test with Stealth 5



Then you MIGHT use agents for teamwork tests, as long as the GM allows it that is (according to the RAW it is allowed)
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DarkCrisis
post May 30 2006, 02:57 PM
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Wow nice! 17 dice!

What is "The RAW?"

I would think and Agent or 2nd hacker could help with hacking the same node.

I'd have to see what the book says.
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The Jopp
post May 30 2006, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (DarkCrisis)
What is "The RAW?"

Rules As Written :D
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mdynna
post May 30 2006, 04:39 PM
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In my games, you can never make something "hack-proof." If you turn off something's Wireless antenna, and/or Skinlink it that just means an enemy Hacker has to go through your Commlink. I have always seen it that if someone breaks into your Commlink, they can do whatever they want to your gear, including shutting off your Smartlink or Cybereyes.
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-X-
post May 30 2006, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE (mdynna @ May 30 2006, 11:39 AM)
In my games, you can never make something "hack-proof."  If you turn off something's Wireless antenna, and/or Skinlink it that just means an enemy Hacker has to go through your Commlink.  I have always seen it that if someone breaks into your Commlink, they can do whatever they want to your gear, including shutting off your Smartlink or Cybereyes.

I do see where you are coming from, but for me...

Someone with Image link and a Smartgun system need never hook up either to their commlink if they don't want to. I'm sure there are huge advantages to hooking them up to the commlink (on the fly information transmitted from teammates showing enemy locations even on the other side of walls from you and the like), but there are advantages to the non-computer saavy (Say, a street sammy who might not want their vision turned off mid-battle) not connecting them.

Sometimes it makes more sense to risk attack for the additional information you might get, sometimes it makes more sense to directly link your Smartgun and Image Link and use Goggles you can easily take off for AR.

So in my games some folks will be fully wireless to the point where if you really infiltrate their commlink you might have the equivalent of a control manipulation spell, and some folks you simply won't be able to muck with their gear without cutting them open.

The likelyhood of someone grabbing your hair to gain an advantage in a fight is fairly low, and yet there are people who crop their hair very close just to prevent someone from taking advantage. Shadowrun is a world that breeds paranoia so for me, it doesn't seem like a stretch that people would be de-wirelessing some of their gear since that goes a long way to protecting them from hacking.
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TBRMInsanity
post May 30 2006, 05:53 PM
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The only true way to be hack-proof is to turn off all communicating equipment. This is known as electronic silence. BUT it has one big disadvantage, you can't do $#!# until you turn on your equipment again. Electronic silence is only used when you don't need any of your equipment on. Hackers in SR4 would almost never go into electronic silence and TMs can't.
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TBRMInsanity
post May 30 2006, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE (X- @ May 30 2006, 12:19 PM)
QUOTE (mdynna @ May 30 2006, 11:39 AM)
In my games, you can never make something "hack-proof."  If you turn off something's Wireless antenna, and/or Skinlink it that just means an enemy Hacker has to go through your Commlink.  I have always seen it that if someone breaks into your Commlink, they can do whatever they want to your gear, including shutting off your Smartlink or Cybereyes.

I do see where you are coming from, but for me...

Someone with Image link and a Smartgun system need never hook up either to their commlink if they don't want to. I'm sure there are huge advantages to hooking them up to the commlink (on the fly information transmitted from teammates showing enemy locations even on the other side of walls from you and the like), but there are advantages to the non-computer saavy (Say, a street sammy who might not want their vision turned off mid-battle) not connecting them.

Sometimes it makes more sense to risk attack for the additional information you might get, sometimes it makes more sense to directly link your Smartgun and Image Link and use Goggles you can easily take off for AR.

So in my games some folks will be fully wireless to the point where if you really infiltrate their commlink you might have the equivalent of a control manipulation spell, and some folks you simply won't be able to muck with their gear without cutting them open.

The likelyhood of someone grabbing your hair to gain an advantage in a fight is fairly low, and yet there are people who crop their hair very close just to prevent someone from taking advantage. Shadowrun is a world that breeds paranoia so for me, it doesn't seem like a stretch that people would be de-wirelessing some of their gear since that goes a long way to protecting them from hacking.



If you are running any sort of wireless equipment you need to run it through your commlink. That means you can't have non-hackable smartlink contact lenses.
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mdynna
post May 30 2006, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE (X-)
Someone with Image link and a Smartgun system need never hook up either to their commlink if they don't want to.
This is where I disagree. I think that for any sort of information-passing equipment to work, the Commlink must be present to act as a "network hub." I believe this was the intention of the entire SR4 Matrix. You can no longer "directly link" 2 devices together (like Smartlink and Cybereyes). You can force someone to have to go through your Commlink, and you can link Commlinks in a "closed network" to force an enemy to go through this Commlink (your group's Hacker/TM), but you can never make a device totally inaccessible.

Although this may not seem "logical" if you are relating it to RL tech, it's a character inclusion mechanic. Namely, "pure" Hackers can do something in Combat now. They need not cower in the corner and wait for the Sammie and Adept to clean things up. It is this idea, IMO, that was the best change in SR4. That is why in my SR4 world, you can no more make yourself "un-hackable" than you can make yourself "un-shootable" or "un-magicable." Every character type gets their chance to contribute in a combat situation.
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FanGirl
post May 30 2006, 06:11 PM
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QUOTE (TBRMInsanity @ May 30 2006, 12:53 PM)
Hackers in SR4 would almost never go into electronic silence and TMs can't.

TMs can go into silence by going into an area with no wireless access, but they tend to get all nervous and fidgety when they do so. I have decided that, if my TM should have to go into a dead zone, she'll go from slightly jittery to batshit insane in the space of a few hours.
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Aaron
post May 30 2006, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE (SR4 @ p. 304)

In 2070, almost every device is computerized and equipped with a wireless link—from guns to toasters to clothing to sensors to cyberware.


So there you have it.

That being said, it's not necessarily easy to hack said device. Anything that doesn't need a user- or security-level access definition doesn't have it, and so your average bit of cyberware only has an admin access, making it that much harder to hack directly. Add to that the fact that all such devices are going to be subscribed (slaved) only to the owner's commlink, which should be running in hidden mode. In order to turn off a set of cybereyes, for example, one would have to:
  1. Find the hidden commlink.
  2. Hack into the commlink the hard and fast way.
    1. The hacker is likely to be detected, at which point the target's Firewall gets a +4 bonus, assuming no other defenses.
  3. If the hacker has gained admin (or possibly security) access, do the deed; otherwise, a spoof attempt is in order.

I've tried this multiple times, and rarely get to the point where I can actually do anything before our gillette, adept, and spell slinger frag the baddies. The best I can do is usually to make sure they don't call for back-up.

Once (and only once, so far), I was able to hack into an attacker's commlink, mostly because I had some extra time as they beat their way into the room we were holed up inside, our shaman was zonked from drain, our gillette had leapt out of the (third-storey) window to outflank them and was confronting their magician, and our adept had critically glitched a leap from the same window. Not to mention the fact that I was throwing twenty dice (including Edge) and got a lot of sixes. So yeah, actually managing to hack an opponent in combat time is pretty rare, in my experience.
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