 Ambidexterity & 2 Weapons vs. 1 Weapon |
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 Jun 1 2006, 08:48 PM
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#26
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081  |
I can think of two reasons: -Style. -take a close look at the disarming rule :D. |
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Jun 1 2006, 08:48 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 31-May 06 From: Pennslyvania Member No.: 8,629 |
Isn't that covered in the statement:
Or am I mistaken? Is that just covering ranged weapons, and what would be the rules if I were to attack with a melee weapon and a range weapon in one pass, would I split the total of the lowest dice pool? Or would they be evaluated seperately while splitting agility? |
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Jun 1 2006, 08:55 PM
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#28
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Refine it to say theres no mechanical advantage (one given by the rules) to wield two of the same weapon at once in sr4. As far as the disarming rule? Point it out to me? A search through the PDF for disarm came up with disarming the distance safety on launched grenades, and disarming data bombs, but nothing about a disarming rule for melee combat. |
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Jun 1 2006, 08:59 PM
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#29
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
No, because that is listed under the ranged combat penalties. Obviously, ranged combat penalties don't apply to melee combat, and melee combat penalties don't apply to ranged combat. You can't make a ranged & melee attack in one pass because a melee attack is a complex action. A ranged attack is a simple action, or possibly a complex if its a burst. Either way, since you can only take a complex OR 2 simple actions in a pass, you can't make it happen. |
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Jun 1 2006, 09:14 PM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
There are really no rules for two weapons in melee (yet, but there will be) . I think Reijins approach to be the sensible one. After all, it's like the ranged combat one, he didn't ask for more damage or dice.
Page 150, one of the options under called shot: 'Knock something out of the target’s grasp'. This is one of the really weird rules in SR4 :D. Hm, after rereading the rules, i think RAW states, you can only call shots for ranged weapons, throwing weapons and unarmed melee attacks. I don't think that makes sense. |
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Jun 1 2006, 09:31 PM
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#31
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
No, you can Butter... Pg 147, "Characters using melee weapons may call shots; see the Called Shots, p. 149."
So you can only call shots with ranged weapons, or with armed melee attacks. Since throwing weapons aren't single-shot, semi-auto, or burst, which is what the called shot descriptor has. Nor are they a melee weapon. As far as the disarm rules, ok, so having 2 weapons of the same and ambidexterous will allow you to virtually ignore getting disarmed once, since you can then just continue attacking with the other weapon. |
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Jun 1 2006, 09:46 PM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
I really wondered about that one. Let me quote:
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Jun 1 2006, 09:59 PM
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#33
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I suppose that passage then allows unarmed melee attacks and thrown weapons to be used with a called shot as well then.
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Jun 1 2006, 11:54 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
I would suspect it's either a fluke in typing or a misquote.
Honestly, how can you not make a called shot with any of the types of attacks? pistol: aim for the head fist: aim for the head(or rather, the nose) sword: lunge at the head, chop that hand off skewer the chum (ouch) axe: lob his bloody head off! machine gun: sure, 20 bullets in the body hurt a lot, but I'll take 10 for the head when one pops it off too. stun baton: crotch shot, baby. two knives: One on each side of the neck, then throw them over your head with some jujitsu or whatever. Tenchu rip off right there. SR is more about the sensibility than the rules (this isn't DnD, honestly). There's a reason they encourage you being creative. THey also mention that the roles aren't all defining - if a character does something well, you are perfectly entitled to say 'hell, that works for me!' That's one of my favorite things about Shadowrun: you aren't ruled by the book. You can negotiate with it. As per a reason to use two weapons over one with fighting someone skilled, the best theory I can figure is you're playing on the odds that they'll roll bad at a critical moment you roll well. Admittedly, that doesn't seem as effective as just one handing them and trying to beat the dice that way (but it is definitely useful for trying for some sort of one(two) hit kills when being sneaky). (reason for edit: forgot my head). |
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Jun 2 2006, 01:58 AM
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#35
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Just me being facetious Fist a better target would be the throat, or the temple. sword, might as well aim for stabbing the heart, more likely to hit that by going between a rib than going through their skull axe: sure, if you're strong enough, or just get the arteries in the neck. stun baton: somewhere along the spine would work better |
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Jun 2 2006, 05:04 AM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
Besides the obvious choice of locations to hit with weapons ( :P lol ) It goes to show called shots work quite well and definitely make sense in just about all those situations. I could see telling someone they can't call a shot if vulnerabilities are protected in some fashion (or else it just negates some or all the benefits).
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Jun 2 2006, 07:10 PM
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#37
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Having broken my hand punching someone in the temple, I can speak for a number of ways in which that is *not* the best target for a fist. A slight twist of the head, and you know what's in front of your hand instead of the temple? That big solid bony front of their skull. :P
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Jun 2 2006, 07:22 PM
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#38
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Yeah, despite what they do in movies, punching someone in the mouth or skull is not a good idea, hehe. |
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Jun 2 2006, 07:45 PM
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#39
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I was amused when my doc informed me I had what was called a "boxer's fracture." Apparently, little-finger-side metacarpal breaks are pretty common. |
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Jun 2 2006, 08:28 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Yet another reason to get cyber hands man.
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Jun 2 2006, 08:47 PM
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#41
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Well no one has claimed boxers are smart... Next time, shoot for the collar bone, it breaks much easier and ends the fight quicker. |
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Jun 2 2006, 10:22 PM
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#42
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I wasn't trying to cause permanent damage, I was trying to get the guy to back the fuck off and stop flailing at me. After my hand suddenly started hurting a lot, knocking him into a big solid object nearby worked about as well.
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Jun 2 2006, 10:28 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
You guys are like ninjas.
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Jun 2 2006, 11:38 PM
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#44
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
*shrug* It was a dumb fight that got started because the guy didn't like something I was doing, and wasn't so hot with the impulse control. At that point, my hand hurt like hell, he was smacking at my head, and I was pissed off. Shouldering someone into a cabinet isn't graceful, but if it knocks the wind out of them long enough that you can leave before they get their shit back together, it's a good enough solution for me.
Spent 8 weeks with a wrist cast on. I was annoyed :P Stupid thing to get hurt doing. |
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Jun 2 2006, 11:41 PM
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#45
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Its not a legend. He started using a Bamboo sword against all his opponents. He felt bad about killing so many men who would challenge him just to be the guy who defeated him. So he started taking challengers with a Bamboo training sword, also called a Daito. He defeated allot of men using that. And as far as I know he did use two swords, but it wasn't like he invented or even pioneered duel wielding. he was most famous for the Bamboo sword. Small correction, he did defeat a master swordsman using a Bokken, a wooden oar that was carved to resemble a sword. His opponet used a No-dachi. To be honest fighting with two swords is unwieldy and awkward. It takes a lot of training for someone to be on par with a single sword fighter. Like the man said, we only have one brain. Tell you what though, firearm trumps sword everytime. |
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Jun 3 2006, 12:07 AM
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#46
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
All the more reason to break something. Personally, if it comes to blows, I like to win. |
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Jun 3 2006, 12:14 AM
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#47
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I have to disagree. I've run and played in a live-action game that used firearms and melee weapons, and I'd rather have a short sword than a gun in a pinch. It comes down to this: it takes two moments to shoot someone (aim-shoot), but only one to cut them (strike). Time and time again, I saw people "cut" down before they could finish aiming, all things being equal. Thrown weapons were also faster than guns. Of course, if you've got a bunch of people that can cover multiple angles, then firearms become more useful, but one-on-one, unless the environment and situation is ideal for the gun-wielder, it's going to be the guy with the pig-sticker. In Shadowrun, I'd say this would be bst represented by a melee fighter with multiple IPs, and plenty of dodge or gymnastics. Use the first IP getting close while performing full defense, and then cut them open in the second or third IP. |
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Jun 3 2006, 01:34 AM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
You can't really compare LARPing with real life though.....or can you?
I can tell you that I would prefer a gun over a sword or knife, especially a good old shotgun. |
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Jun 3 2006, 01:44 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
True, a shotgun will pretty much 'solve' everything, but only if the barrel is pointing at it, you have ammo, and you get the shot off. Someone going melee on your butt just has to get past the barrell length to be safe from the blast, or push it aside to reach you. From there it's a matter of wrestling with the shotgun and them to get it back at face range, or else you got to 'run away' to set your sights again.
range trumps melee at ranged melee trumps range at melee shotgun trumps close up near melee if you get a good shot, otherwise it's a liability if you miss (now if you got the automatic shotgun, that may be a different story, but then I may as well throw spears at you). |
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Jun 3 2006, 04:14 AM
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#50
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Yeah. The idea if you have to fight someone with a firearm, is to get close enough so if you get the chance you can disarm of take them out before they can shoot you. This applies to both SR and real-life. |
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