 Ambidexterity & 2 Weapons vs. 1 Weapon |
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 Jun 3 2006, 05:43 AM
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#51
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Mr. Johnson  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314  |
Not entirely. At range, the melee guy has a chance to get some cover and concealment (the coveted C&C), and then arrange for it to become melee. C&C is hard to come by and even harder to use in melee. So yes: on an open plain, at range, the gun guy has the advantage. Inside an average office building, probably it's the melee guy. In your average street, I'd say it's close, maybe leaning toward the melee guy if he can find some of that sweet, sweet C&C. |
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Jun 3 2006, 06:11 AM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 753 Joined: 31-October 03 Member No.: 5,780 |
...because the melee guy has to run up to do melee, gun still trumps melee in range, because it's no longer range that which the melee is being used. ;)
Close, but not quite. If you were to say you could dodge bullets, then chuck your battleaxe into their gut or remove their hand, that'd be melee trumping the gun. But I'm being technical and getting amusement out of this. |
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Jun 3 2006, 06:27 AM
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#53
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Aaron: To be clear, you're talking only about SR(4), and not what'd happen IRL?
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Jun 3 2006, 07:44 AM
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#54
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
You were playing with morons then. Guns are it, this is why they replaced melee weapons. Seriously I am sure a super skilled swordsman could manage stab a novice gun men if he had surprise. But that is pretty much the rule anyways, you have surprise, and you choose the battle ground you will probably win. Unless you are more than five feet away and they have a gun, then you die. Now you need to pick the right tool for the right job, no clearing rooms with a 24" shotgun. Really though, I suggest you think about how guns work versus swords. And don't use the argument "if I can get in close" because you never will, not ever. You will be shot 100 yards away from the target. |
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Jun 3 2006, 08:01 AM
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#55
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Well, for one, if you are punching, you want to only hit with the knuckles of your pointer and middle finger, why? Because the bones in your hand behind them are much less likely to break than your ring or pinky finger. Also, temple is a very specific target, if you hit the big bony front of their skull, guess what? You missed. |
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Jun 3 2006, 01:35 PM
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#56
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
You don't have to dodge bullets, just get out of their way. In real life, it's actually pretty hard to hit a running target, never mind one who's found some cover and concealment. |
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Jun 3 2006, 01:36 PM
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#57
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Nope, I'm talking about real life. Yes, I really am talking about real life. Except the part where I specifically stated the concept for a Shadowrun (4) character. |
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Jun 3 2006, 01:51 PM
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#58
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Okay. So you advocate knives and swords for CQB instead of MP5s and M4s? Have you considered contacting the Naval Special Warfare Development Group on this?
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Jun 3 2006, 02:03 PM
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#59
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Actually, point-blank shots against an uncooperative target are a lot harder than you'd think. My hand-to-hand instructor during Basic Training (and later, coincidentally, both my Kendo master and one of my martial arts instructors) had words to say that refuted the superiority of the firearm with varying degrees of contempt. As he said, if having a gun made you so superior, why would the Army waste so much time training its soldiers to fight hand-to-hand? Guns are not "it," as you say. Guns merely take a lot less training to use. This creates the illusion of superiority, because "meat-head with gun" is more dangerous than "meat-head with sword." If they'd replaced melee weapons, soldiers wouldn't have bayonet-capable knives, and they certainly wouldn't stow them in combat-ready sheathes.
Um ... I did think about how guns work versus swords. Guns take two actions to use, and swords take one. I also said that if you're on a plain with no cover or concealment, then the gun is superior (you are reading my posts, aren't you, and not just glancing at them?). But that changes a lot if you're in any kind of environment where there is cover or concealment. The next bit is encapsulated for those who are bored with this conversation. [ Spoiler ] All of this cuts to the heart of the argument, which no one has made yet, but really should have been brought up some time ago. Weapons do not fight one another. People fight one another. There's no such thing as a superior weapon. I've been tossed like a rag doll bringing a sword against an unarmed man, and I've shot myself in the face with an airsoft against a man who'd been kneeling in front of me moments earlier. The tools are really inconsequential. But if you're a meat-head, and you're fighting a meat-head, then yeah, go with the gun. |
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Jun 3 2006, 02:04 PM
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#60
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
=b |
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Jun 3 2006, 02:11 PM
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#61
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Well, you seem to be saying their using firearms is stupid and bound to get them killed against knife-wielding opponents, especially in such confined spaces as they often face in maritime operations, so maybe you should clue them in. I'm sure they'll appreciate you telling them they've wasted decades on such silly toys as the MP5 when they could've been carrying katanas.
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Jun 3 2006, 02:33 PM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
you want to use the right weapon for the job. this includes such things as range, reach, and such. at long range, you want to have a rifle, maybe a heavy weapon. at medium range, your better off with pistols and shotguns. at short range... now the swords come into play.
If i have an enemy at range, i may want to shoot him. a silencer is good if i need to keep quiet. If i have an enemy in close, i need a weapon to use, and fight him with what skill i have. A shock glove and unarmed combat is a good way to drop somebody. If the swordsman gets suprise at sword range, hes gonna win. if a pistol and sword fight at pistol range, smart money is on the pistol (if he knows how to use one). at longer ranges? bet on the sniper. If you have 3 swordmen, and i have 3 gunmen, with pistol, assault rifle, and sniper rifle, i think the guy with the pistol will die before i can kill all the swordsmen. lets hope he has docwagon. to claim a sword is better than a gun is silly. but to claim that the adept swordmaster is better than the gunbunny street sam? he could be. tactics and luck are a significant part of combat in SR |
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Jun 3 2006, 04:16 PM
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#63
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Aaron==Ninja Mofo.
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Jun 4 2006, 12:05 AM
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#64
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
No it's not. It's called CQB. Using pistols and SMG's two Delta snipers held off thousands of Somalis armed with machete’s and AK's. Ask them if they wasted there time on training.
Whoopy do. Because the Army try's to prepare you for all situations, not just the most common. There will be times when you run out of ammo, or are forced into such close quarters (a trench) that you will need some skill in defense. IIRC correctly my hand to hand consisted of 3 hours and was a joke. I was told by my DI to never let anyone get close, that’s why you have a rifle. No offense but your "Kendo Master" has the same attitude that most people with guns have. "I know/Have Kendo/Gun I am unstoppable. It's an attitude that will get you killed no matter what weapon you use.
The number of actions have nothing to do with it. You have to get into range to use your sword/knife. If your in range great, it's getting into range that will kill you. Concealment is negligible, since you just shoot through it. Cover is great if you can find it, but unless you are shooting back how do you propose to leave cover and not get shot?
While that has some merit, it is mostly crap. The tools DO matter. Never bring a knife to a gun fight. I am not sure what Military you served in, but I can't see how you could have served in any and think the way you do. |
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Jun 4 2006, 12:27 AM
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#65
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Just a FYI thing, kempo/kenpo is a style of unarmed martial arts, kendo is a style of fighting with a sword. If you're going to be referencing what someone said, you could at least reference it correctly without trying to correct something you have no knowledge in. |
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Jun 4 2006, 12:30 AM
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#66
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
Thanks for the heads up, I saw Kempo where he said Kendo. It doesn't change the relevance of what I said, but I agree, you should always quote directly.
I am not trying to 'correct' him in how Kendo works, or its effectivness against other Kendo users. Kendo itself is less about sword fighting than it is about striking your opponent. Were not debating the merrits of Kendo here. We are debating his bold statement that a sword is better than a gun in close combat, based on his experience in larping. LARPING. People like Austere Emancipator, Raygun, and others have served in the freeking military and actually have been in Close Combat. So maybe the whole
comment should be saved for the guy advocating swords over Firearms based on his vast LARPING experience.
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Jun 4 2006, 12:38 AM
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#67
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
And how skilled were the somalis compared to the delta snipers? What ranges were they engaging in? Sure, charging across an open field with a machete toward two highly trained professionals with smgs you're very likely to get wasted unless they suffer from some sort of mechanical failure. If you're going to be making real life comparions, the only relevant ones would be when both combatants are aproximately equally skilled with their weapon of choice.
Yes, it is. Learn to adapt. Adaptation is how you survive, relying on the same trick to work always will lead to it failing.
Not always, you could throw your knife. Pretty useless in real life, but in shadowrun, it works pretty well, especially if you have a lot of strength. Regardless, as he said, if you're distanced, the gun will usually win. If you're close up, the knife/sword will usually win. There are exceptions to every rule.
Sure, but never bring a gun to a knife fight. If its pitch black, and all you have to identify where your opponant is is by sound and feel, I'd much rather have a knife, so I could stab where I believe he is, or seeing him shoot randomly, attack where the muzzleflash was. Theres plenty of situations where knife trumps gun, or gun trumps knife. The only question is, which situation are you in, and do you have the skills and tools you need to survive? |
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Jun 4 2006, 12:40 AM
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#68
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I merely assumed you had only heard of kempo, and were attempting to correct him in what style his instructor had taught. Obviously you have no knowledge of this beyond what he tells you, and that is what my arguement was aiming at. You said you simply misread the style, so feel free to ignore my comment about correcting outside of your area of knowledge.
One last thing... Sure, they have, so they can discuss it as they have the experiece. As far as I can tell you haven't been in those close combat situations, and therefore you still are speaking outside of your knowledge even moreso than the guy with the LARP experience. |
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Jun 4 2006, 01:01 AM
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#69
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Even as absurd as this arguement is (Blades vs. Guns) I can't stand by and let LARPING get mentioned as combat experience....I just can't...
LARPING isn't combat experience, no way. |
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Jun 4 2006, 01:04 AM
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#70
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
No, it isn't, but its definately at least more practical than no experience with anything.
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Jun 4 2006, 01:24 AM
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#71
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Linking LARPING with combat knowledge is like linking masturbation to knowing how to please a woman. Swinging around foam weaponry in a playing field is in no way similair to real combat.
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Jun 4 2006, 01:32 AM
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#72
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
If you're a woman squinky, then your analogy is more apt. Simply because you'd know how to please yourself, so thus you'd have a better idea of how other women might want to be pleased. Larping gives you a better understanding for the level of skill used in a real combat, simply by having the experince of trying to hit someone while being (relatively) unskilled yourself.
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Jun 4 2006, 05:50 AM
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#73
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Yeah, LARPing. Well, performing a series of test fights with a couple different boffers vs. a few different Airsoft guns (which, incidentally, sting like a motherf*cker at close range) under various circumstances. We weren't really using any ruleset more complicated than "if I hit you you're injured or dead." I'm not sure whether there's a better word than "LARPing" for that, but if you'd like to call it something else, knock yourself out. I've been in what one would call "real combat" before, but never where I had to kill anyone (thankfully), and never one with the aforementioned sword versus gun situation. If my little test case wasn't sufficiently accurate, then I'll happily compare data with someone who has run multiple tests with more realistic equipment (but I'd prefer not to participate, thanks). In answer to the remainder of Shadow's post, I direct your attention to my previous posts. I hate duplicating my own efforts; it's annoyingly inefficient. |
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Jun 4 2006, 07:12 AM
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#74
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006 |
I am just going to shake my head and walk away now. I pray you are never in combat, I really do.
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Jun 4 2006, 07:28 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 14-February 04 Member No.: 6,078 |
This is seriously the stupidest argument I've ever.. even HEARD of. Seriously. However, being a woman, I did get a great laugh out of Squinky's last comment ;)
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