Trolls and large weapons - Dumpshock Forums

Trolls and large weapons, are there rules for this?

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Geekkake

Jun 2 2006, 09:00 PM

Post #26

Moving Target

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QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)

I hate to throw one of my "from personal experience" in here again, BUT

MMG are designed for defencive postions while LMGs are designed for squadron assults. This is why LMGs are lighter then MMGs. This also means that even a troll could not five a MMG from the sholder. They could fire from the hip but there would still be the problem that the weapon is ment to be fired from a tripod. The weapon would be VERY hard to control. HMGs are right out of question though. Most HMGs use 50cal rounds that will give a average human a concusion if fired from the sholder. They need to be mounted into a turret to be effective (like on the top of a Hummer). The only time you will see a metahuman carting one of those around is if they are taking it somewhere to be mounted.

Again, with the mass ratio, I think if the MMG or even HMG were modified for troll-appropriate ergonomics, I see no reason why a troll couldn't use the weapon. Maybe a weapon redesigned from the ground-up as a troll-specific hand-held weapon. So perhaps the canon weapons from the book wouldn't be appropriate (being designed to be fired from a stable platform, meaning not a platform made of meat), as they're bulky and clumsy. But a properly designed weapon should not experience an issue in a suitably large, suitable strong troll.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Jun 2 2006, 09:54 PM Post #27
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	I've seen video of M60s being fired from the shoulder in support of an assault. The shooter looked to be a big guy (probably 240 pounds or so), but that's really not all that absurd. The E3 variants I've seen of the M60 weigh something like 19 pounds, only a few pounds heavier than the M249 (although obviously, the ammunition is heavier too). .50 caliber machineguns weigh noticeably upwards of 50 pounds (usually closer to 100 when you start figuring in mounting gear and all that good stuff), before you add on a belt of ammunition. .50 caliber rifles, on the other hand, weigh 25-35 pounds and are frequently fired by infantry and sport shooters without much in the way of reported concussions. The recoil just isn't that bad, because the gun has been designed to be fired by a person holding it, instead of from a tripod or ring mount, and so despite the fact that the gun's weight is a fraction of the weight of a .50 MG, it's recoil is manageable. Kick us up to 2070, where we have trolls a meter taller than everyone around them and weighing in at 250+ kilos without working at it, I don't see why they wouldn't be able to handle an autofire-capable 50 caliber shoulder weapon, since people 1/2 of their weight and 2/3 their height can handle the semiautomatic ones.

Cain View Member Profile	Jun 5 2006, 07:28 AM Post #28
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178	I have to agree that it's not so much mass, as the ergonomics of the weapon. A weapon designed for a vehicle mount just isn't going to be able to be handled by a troll, no matter how large. If the GM wishes to add enough supports and alterations to make the weapon easily handled without mounts, then there's no reason why a troll shouldn't be able to use it fairly readily.

TBRMInsanity View Member Profile	Jun 5 2006, 01:32 PM Post #29
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,002 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Canada Member No.: 8,494	Where to start: 1. MMG has a minimum of a 7.62mm ammo with the kick of a shotgun when it is fired off of support (ie bipod/tripod) 2. While it is true most HMGs have no stock there are models out there with stocks (used by infantry for better accuracy when firing) Perfect example is the HMG fired from the Hummer in the Green Day video "When September ends" 3. The M60 is a LMG. If actually fires 5.56mm rounds like the M16. I fully disagree with the classification of the Machine guns in the SR4 manual. Technically the LMGs would include both the White Knight and the Stoner-Ares Machine guns (which is why they have the same damage code). The MMG would include the Ultimax Machine Gun and there is not HMG in the book. An HMG would have a similar damage rate as the Assult cannons and would only fire in FA mode.

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Jun 5 2006, 02:57 PM Post #30
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	:twirl: M60 in 5.56mm, oh me, oh my. Quartermasters everywheer are breaking out into a cold sweat. They've been issuing the wrong ammo for all these years!

ornot View Member Profile	Jun 5 2006, 04:34 PM Post #31
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638	I don't claim to be an expert in these matters. I'm British and we don't have the love affair with guns that some others do. I did however, look at Wikipedia which, judging by the number and depth of the firearms entries, is frequently updated by "enthusiasts", and that suggests that the M60 takes a smaller rifle round while the M2 is listed as using a .50 cal round. My perusal of Wikipedia has also led me to the impression that the increased weight of a machine gun is due to a heavier barrel to slow overheating and allow more continuous rates of fire and increased weight helps reduce recoil, improving accuracy. There is a quite interesting article in Wikipedia about the SA80 and variants, which, despite their many flaws including extra weight, are considered more accurate, although this is likely also due to the long barrel. Oh dear, now I'm beginning to sound like a gun "enthusiast" as well ^^ Getting back to the topic in question, I would permit a Troll to wield a larger weapon than the other metatypes, although as the weapon would have to be custom built I'd work out with the player in advance exactly what it was capable of. Unlikely to be much of a problem in my games, as I've yet to have someone play a Troll gun bunny. I did have a troll adept known as Flash once. He wore red body fitted armour and moved really fast!

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Jun 5 2006, 04:38 PM Post #32
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	Remember that all troll firearms will haveto be 'custom built' in the first place, to allow for their larger hands, thicker fingers, etc...

ornot View Member Profile	Jun 5 2006, 04:44 PM Post #33
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638	I more meant if they wanted something with special stats, rather than just buying one of the stock guns with a percentage price adjustment for troll sized ergonomics. Of course that does bring up the point of a troll gaining a concealability increase for hiding regular sized ordnance again... I'd be inclined to refuse... far too confusing. <edited for typo>

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Jun 5 2006, 04:45 PM Post #34
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	Well, so far there have been no 'special stats' mentioned. Just take the stats for an HMG, pay the troll customization costs and go to town.

ornot View Member Profile	Jun 5 2006, 04:47 PM Post #35
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638	I guess that would be pretty quick and easy... Meh... in the game I'm running my runners are keeping a low profile, for all that the Orc face wants to break the seal on his AK, the others won't let him.

TBRMInsanity

Jun 5 2006, 06:10 PM

Post #36

Running Target

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QUOTE (ornot)

I don't claim to be an expert in these matters. I'm British and we don't have the love affair with guns that some others do.

I did however, look at Wikipedia which, judging by the number and depth of the firearms entries, is frequently updated by "enthusiasts", and that suggests that the M60 takes a smaller rifle round while the M2 is listed as using a .50 cal round.

My perusal of Wikipedia has also led me to the impression that the increased weight of a machine gun is due to a heavier barrel to slow overheating and allow more continuous rates of fire and increased weight helps reduce recoil, improving accuracy. There is a quite interesting article in Wikipedia about the SA80 and variants, which, despite their many flaws including extra weight, are considered more accurate, although this is likely also due to the long barrel. Oh dear, now I'm beginning to sound like a gun "enthusiast" as well ^^

Getting back to the topic in question, I would permit a Troll to wield a larger weapon than the other metatypes, although as the weapon would have to be custom built I'd work out with the player in advance exactly what it was capable of. Unlikely to be much of a problem in my games, as I've yet to have someone play a Troll gun bunny. I did have a troll adept known as Flash once. He wore red body fitted armour and moved really fast!

If you must know I am a parital expert on this matter.

I have been trained on a wide range of firearms (ranging from pistols to MMGs). I know how they fire, I know how they work, I know what is feasible and not when firing these weapons.

Austere Emancipa...

Jun 5 2006, 06:23 PM

Post #37

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)

1. MMG has a minimum of a 7.62mm ammo with the kick of a shotgun when it is fired off of support (ie bipod/tripod)

The traditional description of an MMG does not include any caliber requirement, it just needs to be a machine gun capable of extended firing (generally speaking, a heavy quick-change barrel) and being fired from both tripods or other heavy mounts and from bipods. Nearly all modern MMGs are chambered for 7.62x51mm NATO or 7.62x54mmR, however. These days it is more common to talk about General Purpose Machine Guns, like the M240, which can be used with vehicle mounts (often with some modifications), tripods, bipods, or fired without support.

"Kick of a shotgun" has quite a bit of leeway, of course, but going with a low-end 12G shot load:
437.5 grains at 1200fps with 40 grains of propellant from a 7.25lb Remington 870 = 16.2ft-lbs of recoil energy at 12fps, recoil impulse of 3.04lb/s
Versus standard M80 ball from an M240B GPMG:
146 grains at 2750fps with 46 grains of propellant from a 24.2lb gun = 5.1 foot-pounds of recoil energy at 3.7fps, 2.6lb/s of recoil impulse.
And that's without taking into account the reduction of felt recoil from a gas-operated automatic weapon. Of course the heavy bolt and the rest of the internals going back and forth, as well as the belt being pulled across the weapon, cause the gun to shake a fair bit, but the actual recoil per shot fired should not be anywhere near as bad as that from most shotguns.

QUOTE (TBRM)

2. While it is true most HMGs have no stock there are models out there with stocks (used by infantry for better accuracy when firing)

Such devices are not quite equivalent to shoulder stocks on small arms, and would be useless (or worse) when firing the weapon without support.

QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)

An HMG would have a similar damage rate as the Assult cannons and would only fire in FA mode.

I don't really disagree about the damage code, but why could a HMG not include SA and/or BF firing modes?

QUOTE (ornot)

and that suggests that the M60 takes a smaller rifle round while the M2 is listed as using a .50 cal round.

Absolutely right. M60-series machine guns fire the 7.62x51mm NATO round, which is an order of magnitude weaker (almost literally :) ) than the .50 BMG/12.7x99mm round fired by the M2HB HMG.

ornot

Jun 5 2006, 06:36 PM

Post #38

Running Target

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I figured you had at least passing knowledge of these things, based on your previous posts ^^

I find calibre nomenclature to be rather confusing and so many variable calibres have been mentioned in this thread it is hard to keep up.

I did visit the website of the current manufacturers of the M60, U.S Ordnance Inc. (http://www.usord.com/) one can view their FAQ

QUOTE

Q: What type of Ammunition does the M60 Series of machine guns fire?
A: 7.62 x 51 mm NATO ammunition
M61: Armour Piercing used against lightly armored targets.
M62: Tracer used for observation of fire, incendiary effects, signaling, and training.
M80: Full Metal Jacket Ball Against light materiel targets and personnel, and for range training.
M82: Blanks used During training when simulated live fire is desired (A blank firing attachment must be used to fire this ammunition).
M63: Dummy round used during mechanical training.

All very interesting, but fairly moot, as we're discussing the utilisation of weapons made with advanced technology in 2070 by a group of humanoids standing 2 to 3 metres tall and weighing upwards of 200kg

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Jun 5 2006, 06:55 PM Post #39
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	The particular cartridges fired by these weapons may well change, obviously, but assuming humans (or roughly human-sized metahumans) still determine what are called LMGs, MMGs and HMGs, etc.; assuming that wars are still waged in ways similar to how they are waged now; and assuming the basic operating principles of firearms do not change -- all of which appear safe assumptions according to the canon SR world -- the weapons that fill these roles in the 2060s and 2070s will still fire ammunition that is very similar, or even identical. That FAQ must be old, since it makes no mention of the current 7.62x51mm AP round (the M993). The M61 with its steel penetrator is Ye Olde Skool.

Raygun View Member Profile	Jun 5 2006, 10:19 PM Post #40
Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176	I click on this thread again and my fulloshitometer goes haywire. WTF?

Tarantula View Member Profile	Jun 5 2006, 10:29 PM Post #41
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	TBRM has that effect Raygun. Don't worry, just stick your head in the invisible flashlight thread and you'll forget all about it.

Shrike30

Jun 5 2006, 11:01 PM

Post #42

Runner

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QUOTE (TBRMinsanity)

MMG has a minimum of a 7.62mm ammo with the kick of a shotgun when it is fired off of support (ie bipod/tripod)

While there is a certain amount of subjectivity on the matter of felt recoil, I thought I could share some personal experience here.

My DSA FAL carbine weighs about 10-11 pounds loaded and scoped, noticeably under the weight of most MMGs (about 25 pounds). It's chambered in 7.62x51mm/.308 Winchester, the same round most of us agree is a good benchmark for defining an MMG. My Mossberg M500A is a 12 gauge, and can take 3" shells. While the FAL's recoil is kind of sharp, it doesn't hit nearly as hard as the Mossberg does loading a 3" 00 shell, even when fired with the gas action closed off (which essentially turns the rifle into a straight-pull bolt-action). I doubt that a weapon chambered for the same caliber but weighing twice as much as my FAL is going to kick more.

QUOTE (TBRMinsanity)

The M60 is a LMG. If actually fires 5.56mm rounds like the M16.

I think you may be confusing the M60 with the M249. The M60 is referred to as a General Purpose Machine Gun (a type of MMG meant to be usable both as a man-carried weapon and as a vehicularly-mounted weapon), and fires 7.62x51mm. The M249 is a Squad Automatic Weapon (a term that almost always indicates an LMG), and is chambered for 5.56x45mm.

QUOTE (TBRMinsanity)

If you must know I am a parital expert on this matter.

I have been trained on a wide range of firearms (ranging from pistols to MMGs). I know how they fire, I know how they work, I know what is feasible and not when firing these weapons.

What's your background? I'm always interested in seeing how different groups are trained and what they're taught.

Lindt View Member Profile	Jun 6 2006, 03:03 AM Post #43
Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105	I suddenly want to go fire off a 10 ga. mag and see what it does to my shoulder. So 1.5 oz @ 1600 fps? Now to find someone stupid enough to lend me a 10. ga...

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Jun 6 2006, 07:15 AM Post #44
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	You can get 1.25oz slug loads to 1600fps with a 3½" 12 gauge, in case you can't find 10 gauges. Any .338 or bigger magnum ought to be comparable from medium weight sporting rifles. Oh, and I concur with Shrike30: we simply must know. :)

TBRMInsanity View Member Profile	Jun 6 2006, 01:34 PM Post #45
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,002 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Canada Member No.: 8,494	The main reason I say HMGs only fire in FA is because of how 90% of them are designed. Most have a fixed pin receiver group which is great for fully automatic weapons but hard to design for SA or burst fire. Plus with HMGs your most likely shooting at vehicles not people, and as a result you want to hit the enemy vehicle with as much lead as humanly possible. Anyone who wants to experience what it is like to fire these sorts of weapons should look into joining their countries infantry. Some countries have a reserve/home guard unit that allows them to be part time soldiers in your country's army. The other way is to see if local gun clubs are allowed to test fire these weapons (for LMGs and above I thing only the US allows them on gun ranges).

ornot View Member Profile	Jun 6 2006, 01:46 PM Post #46
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638	I'll pass on joining the military just to play with autofire weapons. The physical training would probably kill me anyway!

Austere Emancipa...

Jun 6 2006, 03:59 PM

Post #47

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)

Anyone who wants to experience what it is like to fire these sorts of weapons should look into joining their countries infantry.

Lucky me for not having a real choice in the matter.

ornot

Jun 6 2006, 04:29 PM

Post #48

Running Target

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QUOTE

Lucky me for not having a real choice in the matter.

awwww

*pats Austere Emancipator*

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Jun 6 2006, 05:34 PM Post #49
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	Given my country's current foreign policy leanings, I think I'll pass on joining the military, thanks. Getting shipped to another part of the world to have roadside bombs blown up at me in the name of preserving freedom isn't something I feel like getting into. I've got a lot of respect for the troops running the risk of getting hurt or killed every day for something they believe in, I just think that the people putting them in harm's way have dubious motivations for doing so.

Lindt View Member Profile	Jun 6 2006, 06:11 PM Post #50
Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105	Because remember kiddies, theres a differance between supporting your tropps, and supporting your evil ov... erh i mean goverment.

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