Trolls and large weapons - Dumpshock Forums

Trolls and large weapons, are there rules for this?

TBRMInsanity View Member Profile	Jun 6 2006, 10:27 PM Post #51
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,002 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Canada Member No.: 8,494	Thank God I work for a good government.

Raygun

Jun 7 2006, 01:23 AM

Post #52

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QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)

The main reason I say HMGs only fire in FA is because of how 90% of them are designed.

While that is true, I believe the point Aus was trying to make is that it doesn't have to be. Considering that if you intend to derive the weapon from an existing design (and doing so from an HMG is only logical), you'll have to change quite a lot in order to facilitate ergonomics at the very least. In that case, there's no reason why any existing HMG design couldn't be made select fire. In any case, the Troll wouldn't be using it in the role of an HMG. It would essentially be used as a giant assault rifle.

QUOTE

Most have a fixed pin receiver group which is great for fully automatic weapons but hard to design for SA or burst fire.

Would you like to elaborate on what you mean by that?

Personally, I see little issue with taking an M2HB, flipping it upside down, replacing the top cover with a magazine well (say, one that accepts extended M82A1 mags, for example), replacing the backplate with a shoulder stock, and adding a pistol grip with a select fire trigger group (capable of disconnecting the trigger lever from the sear after each shot). Slap some iron sights and maybe a Picatinny rail to what used to be the bottom of the receiver and blammo, Troll-sized assault rifle which is not terribly dissimilar from a G3 in terms of disassembly.

QUOTE

Plus with HMGs your most likely shooting at vehicles not people, and as a result you want to hit the enemy vehicle with as much lead as humanly possible.

Again, the Troll is likely to treat the weapon differently than a human would.

QUOTE

Anyone who wants to experience what it is like to fire these sorts of weapons should look into joining their countries infantry. Some countries have a reserve/home guard unit that allows them to be part time soldiers in your country's army. The other way is to see if local gun clubs are allowed to test fire these weapons (for LMGs and above I thing only the US allows them on gun ranges).

Or, since it's perfectly legal for civilians to own fully automatic firearms in the US (with the proper tax stamp or license), you can simply find someone who owns one and befriend them. It takes some work, but that's how I've gotten the (admittedly limited) experience with fully automatic firearms that I've had. It's also not terribly difficult to find NFA dealers. I would guess that about 99% of them own machine guns personally.

Squinky View Member Profile	Jun 7 2006, 01:26 AM Post #53
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377	Edited because on retrospect it added nothing to the thread. My apologys.

TBRMInsanity View Member Profile	Jun 7 2006, 01:14 PM Post #54
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,002 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Canada Member No.: 8,494	I don't think people are getting the point I'm tring to make about HMGs, they are just too heavy, too big, and too powerful. NO troll would be able to fire one of these weapons unsupported (or even with a full gyroscope stabalizer). The only way your going to get one of these weapons to fire in a personel mode is if you attach it to an exosceleton that can handle the stress these weapons produce.

Tarantula View Member Profile	Jun 7 2006, 01:55 PM Post #55
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	I think the point you're missing, is just how big, heavy, and strong a troll is, and how much less the forces invovled seem like when you are that big, strong and heavy.

Raygun

Jun 7 2006, 05:29 PM

Post #56

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QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)

I don't think people are getting the point I'm tring to make about HMGs, they are just too heavy, too big, and too powerful. NO troll would be able to fire one of these weapons unsupported (or even with a full gyroscope stabalizer). The only way your going to get one of these weapons to fire in a personel mode is if you attach it to an exosceleton that can handle the stress these weapons produce.

Dude, honestly, I've done the math on this. You can find it by searching the forum as instructed in my very first post in this thread. Your assumption here is incorrect. The average Troll is going to be plenty massive to handle the recoil from an HMG without any kind of recoil-stabilizing equipment.

ShadowDragon8685 View Member Profile	Jun 7 2006, 05:31 PM Post #57
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445	I don't think what he's saying is about mass, Ray. I think he's caught up on the fact that an HMG is not likely to have a standard rifle shaped support (IE, a stock - think of the handles on a Ma Duece), and that it's going to be generating a LOT of impact on a relatively small point - like me. I've got a smegging lot of mass, and firing a shotgun repeatedly - especially if it's got ridiculously hot loads - is still going to bruise the shit out of my shoulder. That said, what would be an HMG round to a human would easily be an AR round to a Troll, if he were firing a weapon specifically made for his MetaType, and not just a human weapon fitted for troll hands.

Shadow View Member Profile	Jun 7 2006, 08:05 PM Post #58
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006	I think I understand where he is coming from, let me try to explain it this way. I was an INF in the US Army. I weighed (at the time) 250 pounds, about 140 kilos. I stand 76 inches or 6'4", just a little over two meters tall. For a time I thought it would be cool to be the M60 gunner, so I volunteered. Now the 60 is considered a GPMG, or a MMG depending at how you look at it. Now the M60 I used had a rifle stock. So you could fir it from the standing position, it wasn't easy but you could do it. The preferred way for me was crouching. It too to much to lay down, and I could stay mobile if I was kneeling/crouched. The .60 fires a 7.62 round, the same, or very similar round fired by many AR's. There is no reason why that gun couldn't be carried like an SMG by a troll. Seriously. A troll weighs 3 times as much as me. At least 600 pounds. And is 3 feet taller, two feet wider than me. If I can use a M-60 like an AR, then a troll should have no problem shooting it like a SMG. Whats 17 pounds to someone who can lift 400? Now a Ma Duece .50 cal weighs about 75 pounds unloaded. But some of that is the tripod and the connector. Remove those and you could probably get it down to 50 pounds. Thats 4 times what a M60 weighs. So a troll who is 3 times bigger than me, could easily manage a 50 pound gun using both hands. Easily. Thats it, they are that big that it really would not be a problem. It would be like us using a big AR. It would have to be redesigned ergonomically, but hey, your going to do that anyways.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Jun 7 2006, 08:19 PM Post #59
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	I'm thinking the application would be a little more like a battle rifle (to humans, the M-14/G-3/FAL "class" of weapons in .308). Has an autofire setting, but is usually used on semiautomatic because the round is heavy enough to sit someone down hard on a solid hit, you've only got 20 rounds in the mag, and the recoil makes the gun walk around some on full auto. Going cyclic is a bit of a waste. I get the impression I'm imagining the recoil affecting the troll a little more than some others are (Raygun, my impression of your imagined troll weapon has it being used more like a .223 assault rifle than a .308 battle rifle), but that's not a very large difference.

TBRMInsanity View Member Profile	Jun 7 2006, 08:20 PM Post #60
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,002 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Canada Member No.: 8,494	I see I'm not being listened to so I'm dropping this thread.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Jun 7 2006, 08:31 PM Post #61
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	Hey, I'm listening. I just think you're wrong :)

Butterblume

Jun 7 2006, 08:38 PM

Post #62

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QUOTE (Shadow)

I was an INF in the US Army. I weighed (at the time) 250 pounds, about 140 kilos. I stand 76 inches or 6'4", just a little over two meters tall. For a time I thought it would be cool to be the M60 gunner, so I volunteered. Now the 60 is considered a GPMG, or a MMG depending at how you look at it.

You know, your numbers seem a little off.
Now, you might just be an engineer for NASA :D.

I was a Jäger (light infantry) at the german army. I weighed (at the time) about 65 kilos (130 metric pounds). I didn't volunteer, I just fieldstripped the MG3 faster than most guys the G3, and I qualified in basic training for gold status with the MG.

QUOTE

Now the 60 is considered a GPMG, or a MMG depending at how you look at it.

Since the MG42 most portable machine guns qualify as GPMG (General Purpose Machine Guns), meaning they count as light when carried by infantry and medium when mounted on a tripod or vehicle.

(btw: a tripod is heavy).

Shrike30

Jun 7 2006, 08:44 PM

Post #63

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QUOTE (Butterblume)

Since the MG42 most portable machine guns qualify as GPMG (General Purpose Machine Guns), meaning they count as light when carried by infantry and medium when mounted on a tripod or vehicle.

Are you including 5.56mm "Squad Automatic" type machine guns on this list? You usually don't see those mounted on vehicles.

Butterblume View Member Profile	Jun 7 2006, 08:48 PM Post #64
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081	Hm, can you still be a General Purpose Machine Gun with a toy calibre of 5,56mm?

Shadow View Member Profile	Jun 7 2006, 08:59 PM Post #65
Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006	I am not an engineer, which is why my conversion is off, they are just "best guess". And you are right, the Tripod on a M2 is freeking heavy, so you lose a lot of weight when you drop it.

Butterblume View Member Profile	Jun 7 2006, 09:17 PM Post #66
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081	I never noticed that the basic HMG in the SR4 book has a 3(10) recoil compensation. A Troll or a strong Ork would be strong enough to lug that around. Like mentioned in the text, it might even be fired standing... (After all, shockpad and gas vent 3 gives 4 point recoil compensation, probably enough to shoot a long burst)

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Jun 7 2006, 11:22 PM Post #67
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	I've got a pretty funny image in my head at the moment... In the beginning of the getaway scene in Heat (which rapidly degenerates into the massive downtown shootout scene), the characters inside of the car don't roll down the windows and try to stick their bodies out of a speeding car in order to shoot forwards... they just start shooting through the windshield. I can imagine how loud (and bright, with a carbine) that'd be inside of a vehicle. Skip forwards to 2070... The van slews around a corner and accelerates, building up speed towards the Lone Star roadblock. "We got company, folks!" yells the rigger, as bullets start hitting the van, starring the windshield and punching holes in the radiator. "Frag these cops," growls the troll in the backseat, dragging the 12.7mm up between the front seats and levelling it through the windshield, flipping the selector to autofire. "Uh, Zeek, hold on a...." is as far as the front passenger Flea gets, before the windshield is blown out of the frame riding 12 cubic feet of muzzle flash, and everyone's blast dampening kicks in...

Raygun

Jun 8 2006, 01:37 AM

Post #68

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QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

I don't think what he's saying is about mass, Ray. I think he's caught up on the fact that an HMG is not likely to have a standard rifle shaped support (IE, a stock - think of the handles on a Ma Duece), and that it's going to be generating a LOT of impact on a relatively small point - like me. I've got a smegging lot of mass, and firing a shotgun repeatedly - especially if it's got ridiculously hot loads - is still going to bruise the shit out of my shoulder.

TBRMInsanity's point all along has been a lack of controllability due to excessive recoil. I have shown mathmatically, in previous threads, that this would not be the case. Aus posted a link demonstrating that even humans have little issue firing a rifle using an "HMG" round (.50 BMG) from the shoulder using a properly designed rifle.

Now, regarding ergonomics, kigmatzomat is the one who brought it up. In my post following his, I assumed that in any case, the "HMG" would need to be suited to the Troll's stature, otherwise he would be likely to run into problems. Ergonomics are an important aspect with regards to controllability. I went on to say "you'll have to change quite a lot in order to facilitate ergonomics at the very least." I then explained how an M2HB could be modified to suit the Troll's stature. So I definitely considered that issue.

TBRMInsanity went on to say:

QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)

I don't think people are getting the point I'm tring to make about HMGs, they are just too heavy, too big, and too powerful. NO troll would be able to fire one of these weapons unsupported (or even with a full gyroscope stabalizer). The only way your going to get one of these weapons to fire in a personel mode is if you attach it to an exosceleton that can handle the stress these weapons produce.

Which I refute completely, as I have gone to lengths beyond simple supposition to conclude otherwise (even to my own suprise).

QUOTE (Shadow)

A troll weighs 3 times as much as me. At least 600 pounds. And is 3 feet taller, two feet wider than me.

According to Patrick Goodman's excellent article found in TSS #13, the average Troll would weigh more like 1,083 lbs, considering other factors mentioned in canon.

QUOTE

Now a Ma Duece .50 cal weighs about 75 pounds unloaded.

An M2 actually weighs 84 lbs without the tripod. The pintle pin actually slides through a hole in the receiver itself, so there's no extra weight on the gun when the tripod is detached.

QUOTE (Shrike30)

I get the impression I'm imagining the recoil affecting the troll a little more than some others are (Raygun, my impression of your imagined troll weapon has it being used more like a .223 assault rifle than a .308 battle rifle), but that's not a very large difference.

Okay, here we go. I hope you guys appreciate this.

Human, average weight: 154 lbs
Rifle, M16A2: 7.5 lbs, unloaded (4.87% body weight)
Load: 62 grain FMJ @ 3025 fps (US M855)
Propellant Weight: 26.1 grains
Recoil: 4.5 fpe @ 6.2 fps
4.5/154 = 0.02922 fpe/lb

Human, average weight: 154 lbs
Rifle, M14: 9.2 lbs, unloaded (5.97% body weight)
Load: 146 grain FMJ @ 2750 fps (US M80)
Propellant Weight: 46 grains
Recoil: 13.4 fpe @ 9.7 fps
13.7/154 = 0.08701 fpe/lb

Troll, average weight: 1083 lbs
Rifle, M2HB: 84 lbs, unloaded (7.75% body weight)
Load: 660 grain FMJ @ 2910 fps (US M33)
Propellant Weight: 235 grains
Recoil: 36.7 fpe @ 5.3 fps
36.7/1083 = 0.03388 fpe/lb

Note that the M2HB has no additional weight added for ergonomic purposes. This data assumes the rifle is being fired at as light of a weight as possible; one round in the chamber, no magazine attached, meaning recoil will be maximized. Also note that this does not include any reduction in recoil from means other that sheer mass (particularly in the M2HB's case, its short recoil operation and barrel buffer).

Now, if we actually bring the Troll's rifle down to a weight equal to the human/rifle ratio (considering the XM312, this should be possible), we get this:

Troll, average weight: 1083 lbs
Rifle, (hypothetical): 59 lbs, unloaded (5.5% body weight)
Load: 660 grain FMJ @ 2910 fps (US M33)
Propellant Weight: 235 grains
Recoil: 52.2 fpe @ 7.5 fps
52.2/1083 = 0.04819 fpe/lb

Still less than (almost half) the fpe/lb of a human with an M14.

Sources:
How Much Did You Say He Weighed?
US Army Ammunition Data Sheets - TM 43-0001-27
M2 .50 Caliber (12.7mm) Machine Gun "Ma Duce"
Colt Weapon Systems - M16
Springfield Armory - M1A Standard
Recoil Calculator

QUOTE (TBRMInsanity)

I see I'm not being listened to so I'm dropping this thread.

You are being listened to. Unfortunately, the assumptions you've been making are incorrect. This is why some people, including myself, have been disagreeing with you.

Butterblume

Jun 8 2006, 02:52 AM

Post #69

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QUOTE

According to Patrick Goodman's excellent article found in TSS #13, the average Troll would weigh more like 1,083 lbs, considering other factors mentioned in canon.

Sounds like a SR3 Troll to me - in SR4 RAW they are a smaller and heavier than in SR3. Just mentioning :D.

Raygun View Member Profile	Jun 8 2006, 03:55 AM Post #70
Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176	That is (somewhat) based on an "SR1-3 Troll". I was unaware that they had changed the height/weight for Trolls in SR4. Incidentally, the weight still appears to be a bit off in SR4. In proportion to its height (using the formula provided in Goodman's article), I come up with a proper weight of 763 lbs (346.2kg). Troll, average weight (SR4): 763 lbs Rifle, M2HB: 84 lbs, unloaded (11% body weight) Load: 660 grain FMJ @ 2910 fps (US M33) Propellant Weight: 235 grains Recoil: 36.7 fpe @ 5.3 fps 36.7/763 = 0.04809 fpe/lb Still about half the recoil of human/M14, however, the "rifle" is proportionately nearly twice as heavy (17 lbs to an average human, a bit less than an M240B). Troll, average weight (SR4): 763 lbs Rifle, (hypothetical): 42 lbs, unloaded (5.5% body weight) Load: 660 grain FMJ @ 2910 fps (US M33) Propellant Weight: 235 grains Recoil: 73.3 fpe @ 10.6 fps 73.3/763 = 0.09606 fpe/lb That's a lot of recoil, definitely unmanageable in full auto without some kind of recoil management. However, utilizing an efficient muzzle brake or a recoil management system like the XM312, it would likely work just fine. Still no harness or anything like that needed. There's also no reason why the "rifle" couldn't be a tad heavier, say up to 8% body weight (61 lbs/troll).

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Jun 8 2006, 04:43 AM Post #71
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	Of course, then you get to the fact that trolls can carry and use 'really heavy weapons' as an MMG. A fire support troll carrying around a 25 or 30mm automatic grenade launcher /light autocannon on a bipod might be pretty handy to have around. I think the real limiters on troll heavy weapons will probably be the ammunition weight.

Shrike30

Jun 8 2006, 05:56 AM

Post #72

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I think weight is honestly less of a concern than volume. If you're making 20 round .50 caliber magazines, those get kinda bulky kinda fast.

QUOTE (Raygun)

I hope you guys appreciate this.

Raygun love is ALWAYS appreciated. :notworthy:

eidolon View Member Profile	Jun 8 2006, 06:10 AM Post #73
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333	I once stood in a rowboat, propped 2 60's on my hips, and just started rockin'! And I didn't stop rockin' until I was waist deep in brass and sinking! And I did it all without sweating into my bitchin' red shvetband.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Jun 8 2006, 12:21 PM Post #74
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Using Raygun's format: Human, average weight: 154 lbs M240B GPMG: 24.2 lbs, unloaded (15.7% body weight) Load: 146 grain FMJ @ 2750 fps (US M80) Propellant Weight: 46 grains Recoil: 5.1 fpe @ 3.7 fps 5.1/154 = 0.03312 fpe/lb Troll, average weight (SR4): 763 lbs Rifle, (hypothetical 25x59Bmm "MMG"): 84 lbs, unloaded (11% body weight, about same as a Mk 48 Mod 0 for a human) Load: 2037 grain HEDP @ 1750 fps (US XM1049?) Propellant Weight: 50 grains (from earlier correspondence with Raygun) Recoil: 52.1 fpe @ 6.3 fps 52.1/763 = 0.06828 fpe/lb Troll, average weight (SR4): 763 lbs Rifle, (hypothetical 20x102mm "HMG"): 105 lbs, unloaded (13.8% body weight) Load: 1543 grain HEI @ 3280 fps (US M56A3) Propellant Weight: 585 grains Recoil: 213.9 fpe @ 11.5 fps 213.9/763 = 0.28034 fpe/lb So, uhh, I guess trolls using AGLs as personal weapons will work, to an extent. High velocity 40mm rounds (like the ones fired from a Mk 19) will cause heftier recoil than the 25x59Bmm loads of an OCSW, though. But using automatic cannons, even relatively "light" 20mm ones, is probably out of the question. The felt recoil to a SR4-type troll from a 20x102mm cannon would be significantly worse than that from an M2HB to the average human.

DrowVampyre View Member Profile	Jun 8 2006, 12:54 PM Post #75
Target Group: Members Posts: 68 Joined: 19-April 06 From: Rio Rancho, NM Member No.: 8,484	Yeah, even a troll would have trouble with autocannons, I'd say. However, they could probably pull the Predator trick and use a smaller caliber minigun...that'd be plenty unpleasant for anyone on the receiving end, even if it would necessitate a gigantic backpack for all the ammo.

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