[X] My Assistant

[Witness]

uh..
What does levitation have to do with grenades and warthogs? The world must know!

[Shrike30]

Go looking for the "HALO Warthog jump" video. It's classy.

[Witness]

Yup. I like that! :)

[ornot]

Hi there.
Tenuously related to the subject, but I recently started a SR4 game, and had several players insist that taking "incompetency - parachuting" was practically free points. The logic being that when were they ever likely to go parachuting? As a consequence, my version of Denver has an awful lot of very high rise buildings now!

Regarding levitation, when I was playing a mage in SR3 I always found it very handy, although as has been pointed out the movement rate in SR4 would mean he landed a significant time after his team, unless he decided to activate it later, and in that situation I would, as GM, impose a dice pool modifier due to the distraction caused by plummeting to earth at terminal velocity. Of course once he'd got the spell off and resisted the drain he'd be pretty much free to land wherever quite safely. The description of Levitate suggests a pretty good level of gross movement control.

As for wards, that shouldn't be a problem, <quote p185> "a ward must be placed on a non-living thing (walls, rocks and so on)." So should he pass through one, he's already toast from hitting a roof! It occurs to me that wards mentioned in SR3, such as those used in binding rituals, had a circular component with the upper limits determined as a hemispherical dome. Although for the mage to fall through that it's have to be one hell of a big circle!

[booklord]

I see no problem with the magician doing this. Some magicians even specialize spells for this sort of thing with "Feather Fall" or "Free Fall" spells to reduce drain.

I also don't see any real need for any negative dice modifiers.

Heck if I was a mage I'd NEVER learn parachuting. Why learn such a mundane skill when there is a better way? ( Mages do tend to have this superiority attitude going )

Now you want to get nasty I had a player who concieved of a "homing grenade" spell. The mage casts the spell on a grenade. The grenade then flies directly at the target of the spell and then " presses itself up against the target until it blows up. Everything was going so well until he tried to take on a mage with reflecting metamagic.

[Vaevictis]

[Witness]

Well if it were me, I'd rather take my chances with the parachute and have the levitate as a back-up. That way at least you've got something else to fall back on (pardon the pun) if something goes wrong with option A.

Actually it's not clear to me if *all* the team will be going in this way. I know at this point that at least two are willing to give it a try (one of them the mage), but the others may be coming at the problem from other directions, so to speak, such as lining up the distractions and escape routes on the ground. I don't really know at the moment. The plan is still being worked on (we have a web forum for our games).

I'm open to them trying the two-people thing, if other people can tell me that it's feasible.

EDIT: and to booklord: yes I probably wouldn't object to a mage specializing in this particular magic, but this mage hasn't. Yet. IMO it'll take longer for him to learn / build a custom spell than it will for him to take a crash course (sorry again) in parachuting.

EDIT 2: by-the-way, I think there is a difference between failing on a Levitation spell and failing on a parachuting test. Depending on what part of the jump the parachuting test is addressing, then failing it might only result in drifting off course and losing sight of the others. Fail a Levitate spell, however, and you plummet. Glitching a parachuting test could, IMO, also lead to a grisly death. Glitching a Levitate spell might lead to a grisly death and massively alerting the bad guys to the rest of the jumpers, or something like that.

[Crusher Bob]

The two to a chute drops
1 are almost invariably done with civilian rather than military chutes, the typical military chutes are designed to get you on the group fast, without breaking anything. The civilian chutes are typically closer to hang gliders in their performance, and you can come in for a much softer landing.


2 the jumpers aren't loaded down with an additional 40 pounds of guns, armor, and ammo each.

[ornot]

Hehe. Designing a featherfall spell. Certainly easier than investing time, nuyen and karma in learning to parachute.

My mage (sadly not involved in a game at present) could certainly do with it. 4 levels of gremlins and unskilled HALO parachuting tests does not bode well.

[hyzmarca]

Remember, sustained spells are present on the astral plane. They can be attack in astral combat, dispelled, or forced into conflict with a ward.

Why should a mage choose parachutting? Well, these two scenarios spell it out quie clearly.

1) Mage: Okay, I levitate down between the communication antenna.
GM: Roll Force of your levetation spell x2.
Mage: Why?
GM: Because those aren't communication antenna, they're the physical components of a Force 12 ward. Your spell is destroyed and you fall to your death.

2)GM: [rolls dice]
Mage: What's that?
GM:You'll see.
Mage: Shouldn't I get a perception test?
GM: Not as you are now. [rolls more dice] Your spell fails and you fall to your death.
Mage: What?
GM: I was rolling for the spirits that were patrolling the area. They saw your spell and attacked it. You couldn't see them because you were not astrally perceiving.

[Witness]

It must be said that this particular mage benefits from astral chameleon and murky link, which I am prepared to say may make his spells harder to spot (would you guys?). Also they're not expecting wards over the entire neighbourhood, just over the house they're trying to get to quickly.

[Vaevictis]

[Vaevictis]

As far as I can tell, neither Astral Chameleon nor Murky Link suggest any benefit in the described scenario in the rules as written.

However, as the GM, it is of course, your call.

(as an aside, where does it say that an astral being can engage a spell in astral combat? AFAIK, spells show up as "auras" which are visible, but are not something you can "physically" interact with on the astral plane, with the exception of mana barriers which are explicitly said to do so)

[Austere Emancipa...]

[ornot]

Whether the mage gets a chance to recover from the spell failing depends on how far above the ground he is when the spell fails. Equally, if he's already slowed himself in preparation for landing and his spell is disrupted he may not take so much falling damage.

A force 12 ward might well extend high enough that it would kill the spell at some considerable altitude, but creating and maintaining a force 12 ward would be extremely draining and/or expensive, not to mention blindingly obvious to anyone with The Sight from a long way away.

Besides that, a levitating mage is not being forced through the ward anyway. The force of his magic is propelling him downwards, and failing to pass the check to break through the ward would perhaps instead result in him bouncing off it. The example used in the book is intentionally walking through a barrier or being in a lift that passes through a ward, so on encountering the force 12 ward he could decide to not press through it and levitate himself off in some other direction.

As for spirits attacking the sustained spell, even if the mage wasn't astrally perceiving (and let's face it, astral overwatch is one of a mage's raison d'etre), he'd still be aware of a spirit attempting to disrupt his spell. p176 states "The caster of a sustained or quickened spell that is targeted by dispelling is automatically aware of the attempt".

To Witness: I don't think those qualities really help much in making his spells harder to spot. Murky Link makes the character harder to target by ritual magic, can be bought by any character, so giving a spell caster special benefits above and beyond a mundane is somewhat unfair. Meanwhile, Astral Chameleon means his spells leave a less noticeable signature, doing nothing to change their appearance when active. I don't believe there is any method to limit the visibility of an aura or an astral form. The closest you might get is the metamagic technique of masking, but even that wouldn't hide the spell, or the auras of the plummeting running team.

p182 states "like physical perception, a character using astral perception should not need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious" so the team had better hope that the spirits guarding the place are pretty unobservant!

[Witness]

OK fair enough on the RAW. In fact the mage has unusual properties (another long story- but so do the other players in different ways) which are, in a sense, being represented by the astral chameleon and murky link qualities mentioned, so I am content to have his magic be slightly harder to spot, but probably only slightly.
It is certainly possible that he will be spotted and targeted by spirits, if using magic. Not sure he's considered that, and perhaps he should have a spirit of his own ready to fend them off while he's landing. But I get the impression he has now decided to use a normal chute and keep Levitate ready if needed.

[booklord]

[ornot]

On checking the relevant text in the book, I noticed I was wrong about intentionally walking through a barrier. The exact text is (p186) "In some cases, a spell, focus, spirit or even a character may be unintentionally forced into a situation where either they or the barrier must give. For example a character who unknowingly walks through a mana barrier carrying an active focus, or a dual being in an elevator that passes through a ward on its way up."

However, I had always considered magical wards to have a sort of rubbery property, certainly to an astral form, such that attempting to push through would be like trying to force ones way through a latex membrane, with more powerful wards being thicker and more resistant to being stretched. That's were I got the mental image of a mage being bounced off a ward and developed the idea that a mage would have time to react to passing through the ward. Of course the mage's physical body would not be impeded, only the spell, so I guess the question is whether the mage has time to abort his passage through the ward and save the spell, or not.

We have drifted off the topic somewhat though, as Witness has confirmed that a big scintillating dome is not present on the astral plane over the runners' target. ^^

[Edward]

My biggest problem with the setup is where they are getting access to a plain, military halo shutes and training in time for the run.

I would have gone in on the ground in some form of disguise. Your jumping into a population center for gods sake, you will be seen and questions will be asked, also you will have very small available landing sights.

[Witness]

[Edward]

First training will take at least days (probably a week) for the first point of skill. Days I doubt they want to waist.

This is my extraction plan.

I place this in spoiler tags. Players in this game should only read with the GMs permission.

[ Spoiler ]

You describe the site as a very secure neighborhood in Bellevue. Are we talking apartments or suburbs. Ether way I understand a legitimist citizen would be able to drive a car down the street (or at least a block or 2 away) assuming gated community somebody will call a electrician (hacking of a random house control node will ensure this happens)

If apartments then they are going to have to manage the very delicate task of landing on the roof with minimal training. Landing between apartment buildings is not really possible.

In this scenario I would attempt to ascertain the room the family is in (they have access to an AIs hacking resources, significant even if the AI itself is otherwise occupied), the mage and a few bound spirits enter threw the window (this will be secured but a high force power bolt acid stream or comparable attack will eliminate it, if need be multiple windows and or walls can be breached in this manner), deal with those guards that watched the family (the family will be noncombatant so don’t expect those few to be a high threat, however they will try to kill the hostages) and evacuate the family using levitate, invisibility and concealment (use spirits of man) to a propositioned evacuation vehicle. Moments before (and only moments) the wards are breached at that position the rest of the team stages a diversionary attack at a plausible ground level entry point (or multiple points) using big noisy weapons and military combat drones (aerial drones may be tasked to attack the roof). All extraction vehicles are fast, armored, have changeable plates and transponders as well as photovoltaic paint, they are also being speed and concealed buy an air spirit.

If I was unable to locate the family in advance the diversion would be delayed until after the extraction team entered, the extraction team would perform an astral room to room search to locate the family as quickly as possible, the plan would otherwise be unchanged.

If the family is being held in a house in the suburbs the plan is quite similar, the diversion dose not use such large weapons (you don’t want to harm the family) and the extraction team should consider a roof entry point.

The key point is that the time from problem arising to mission concluded is lower, and the time from being spotted to mission conclusion is lower if the approach is made using camouflaged vehicles instead of HALO jump.

The use of both improved invisibility and a powerful spirits stealth power (and of cause the infiltration skill) makes the detection of the extraction team low, they were not going to kill your family until you can watch soothe distraction will not trigger there deaths. The enemy forces streaming into the neighborhood are dealt with buy the exquisitely high speed getaway vehicles. if the existence of the kink bombs becomes known then they can be jammed, not that there is no way for the kink bombs to be detected except buy GM feat (the family has been told). If you don’t give them this information then it is imposable for the extraction to succeed.

[Witness]

[Edward]

Your letting them get the training how fast, to what skill level, and how will they be training.

There is one way to get the skill fast, skill wires, and if you don’t have the implant you can have it in an afternoon (with powerful magical healing replacing the 2-5 days recovery time) the question becomes do the characters have that much essence to burn (or implants they can take out) and dose the mage want to loose the magic

One other thing that is missing is an extraction plan. If the aria is such that you cant more easily get to the building buy car than buy parachute then positioning an extraction vehicle will be a serious problem

The key issue as I see it are these times.
Mission announcement to mission completion
Mission secrecy lost to jammer in range of family (oh for a signal 12 jammer)
Mission secrecy lost to mission completion.

I still think mine is faster on all counts, unless the secure aria is much bigger than I assumed (there in an arcology or a 3 block radius has been cordoned off) which still leaves the problem of the extraction

Edward

[Witness]

Agreed. Getting out is the hard bit, and they're working on that.

I appreciate your thoughts. There's actually a ton of stuff that you need to know and consider in order to better appreciate the situation, and I'm afraid I don't have the time to clue you in fully. But since you asked, I will say that it is a fairly large, highly gated luxury suburban community: big homes with big gardens, lots of trees. The target house is pretty much in the middle. It isn't possible for 'just anybody' to drive through the neighbourhood, and there are various gates and checkpoints that ground vehicles will have to pass. The whole place is patrolled and secured by Knight Errant (sections of which have been infiltrated by the Big Bad Enemy- which happens to be Deus's Network).

Yes, maybe going in on the ground, in disguise, would be an option for them. We shall see, I guess. But they like the parachuting idea, and sod it, so do I! I'm not going to let them get parachuting to a very high level, but with access to state of the art VR training (plus a little bit of retconning with regards to whether they might have done a bit of parachuting in their past), state of the art jump suit and chute technology, plus the fact that they're talking about using an air spirit (and levitation) to help out... well, I'm happy to give them a shot at it even if it's stretching reality a bit. We're at the end of this episode of the campaign, and they've already overcome so much, and frankly, this particular mission is something of an epilogue to the main proceedings anyway. So this time, I'm happy to let them cut loose a little bit with the fun and the cool. *shrug*.

[duck1123]

This really raises the question of does Levitation take relative motion or not? What is the movement rate listed in the rules relative to? Absolute Rest? Do the Sixth World scientists know something that Einstein didn't?

If a mage is traveling in a train going 120 kM/hr, and casts his spell, does he continue along with the train, or does he slam into the back of the train? (even if he's going at his maximum movement rate.)

If we consider that movement is relative to his velocity at the moment he casts the spell, then if he's falling at terminal velocity (88m/s or 266m/turn), casts his spell and tries to fly "up" at his maximum speed (F^2, assuming he gets the maximum hits possible), he would need to cast levitate at 16 to reduce himself to (nearly) a dead stop.

Now granted, I'm not sure if I like that way of ruling levitate, but I'm not sure I like the opposite. (never cast levitate in orbit)

As a side note, I would really like to create a variant of Levitate that is expressed in terms of rate of acceleration. (with the only maximum speed being the metahuman limits of the mage to withstand bugs in his teeth) Any ideas on the type of drain that would take?