Unorthodox Combat Mechanics, Rulebook Nazi Anathema Options

[Trucido]

I find that in the world of Shadow Run combat can sometimes get tiresome, or repetitive. Sometimes everything can be solved with an assault rifle, some APDS rounds, and good recoil compensation. In order to make up for this, when I GM I like to include some interesting mechanics and qualities to the opposition.
To some GMs this makes me the anti-christ. I've played with a couple of GMs who swear by the source books like the bible. I find that I can't do that, not because I feel like it makes the game stale necessarily (not that I don't either). It's more or less that I'm too lazy to A) memorize it and B) Check the scatter chart everytime someone fires a grenade.
This causes a bit of trouble sometimes, but it also allows me to create my own rules without fear of them infringing on the book because I don't know WHAT the book says about it. So I was wondering if anyone else has any interesting tweaks to combat that they've added.
For instance, I've created a two different sets of enemies for my next with two seperete mechanics. The first of which are tower shield wielding swordsmen. The mechanic? 1d6, 4 and under and they deflect any ranged combat attack taken against them. This is because I've found that the melee characters in my group are often sent to the back of the lines so the full autoers can take charge.
The bullies, the other set, have a mechanic called "Bullet Sponge". Basically, they have a reaction of 1, but they take half damage. Eating bullets like candy. Sure it'll make combat a bit more challenging. But it would make a character alot more intimidating if they took a bullet to the brain and grinned back at the party. These mechanics are never intended to be used BY the players.

What do you think?

[Austere Emancipa...]

[hobgoblin]

some mixture of dikote and orichalcum apparently...

[Trucido]

Well, that's why they're unorthodox, but I've found you can explain anything away with "err... Magic...". And yeah I could give them a high body. And lots of armor. But then there's lots of math and dice rolling. And I really think it bogs down the game to roll 25-30 dice. Also, odds are you're going to get at least 6 successes on a 30 dice test, hell you could auto-succeed 7. That would make damage impossible. Not annoying.

[Trucido]

Or dikote and orihalcum... Exactly >.> what I was thinking hobgoblin. <.<;

[Squinky]

While I respect what you are saying, two things come to mind.

1. You can't really call the rules boring if you haven't even read them fully. There are many options to even out combat. If you are having problems with melee characters not doing there thing, there is a dice pool penalty to ranged combat if someone is in melee range. Attack your gunners with melee folk and the tables turn. For that matter, there are tons of modifiers for ranged, use them. That is another area melee characters have it lucky.

2. Players who cotton to the fact that you are just making up crazy rules to fit your needs will feel unhappy when they made their characters by the rules. I personally don't like it when that happens...

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Kanada Ten]

Drones, magic, and intelligent tactics are basic ways to fight full auto monsters... Your Bullet Eaters could be mimicked using actual game mechanics such as Regeneration, Immunity to Normal Weapons, and even some spells. Judicious use of Invisibility and Levitation can make enemies nearly invincible, but just having them choose the fighting ground can offer the same results.

If you're just really into simplicity, then you'd be happier with another game system.

[Trucido]

I agree with the both of you. And if I called the standard combat rules boring I apologize, not for insulting the book or anything so much as failing to express myself fully and properly. I do not find the rules to be... Boring. Think of it as... a video game for instance. In every sequel they add some sort of whacky mechanic. Be it the ability to transform into some monstrosity, or go into some form of bullet time, or whatever it is. this is in an attempt to rehash the old combat system and make it interesting again without having to reinvent something that already works
I respect the combat system because, well, it works. But I feel that a good rehash every once and again keeps combat interesting. I also agree that if the players feel cheated by it, then I have failed to do my job as a GM, and that is to provide an entertaining and enjoyable world for which the players to immerse themselves in.
Perhaps a part of my love of these simple but rule altering mechanics is that sometimes I feel like the game can sometimes lose it's immersion if you attempt to accomplish the same goal through the games internal systems. It can be done. But adding up modifiers and recounting your dice pool everytime you attack can feel... burdensome to some new to intermediate players.
I've been playing ShadowRun for about four years now. Because of the old TN system I learned to love modifiers...and loathe them. But most of all I learned to utilize them. But I remember nothing frustrated me more than calculating them. In this way I am able to achieve the same effect without losing the magic of the world. This, more than digits, reminds the players that they are in an extraordinary world, furthermore, one where they are NOT the only extraordinary people.

Thanks much for your input. I agree completely with the both of you. Like women, these mechanics should be used in moderation!

[chewy01234]

Wrong account. oops.

[Vasili]

Hi, My name is Vasili. I am in Trucido's gaming group. I am a bullet sponge. (Or not, judging by the 11p I took to my gut last night from some asshole prime runner APDS carrying punkass.)

Anyroad, I'd like to add to Trucido's setup that we are both usually players, our GM is the worlds biggest rule nazi. We will argue for hours over the stupidest stuff because he cannot let go of the rulebook, every combat turn is saturated with 3-5 rulebook checks and combat begins to feel slow and clumsy. Is he a good GM? Yes. But after 2 hours spent on 3 combat turns, equating to 9 seconds of game time....things are frustrating.

Trucido, to my knowledge has not been a game master since SR3, and the both of us are about to get into GMing for the group (Him for a game or so, and then me for a short story arc.) and I think the main point here was to ask what people did in general to streamline combat, and make it more efficiant and fun for everyone.

[Squinky]

Well, SR4 combat seems to go much faster as compared to SR3. Get the basics down, then it is easy to not have to look up everything, because most things only modify dice by a little.

[Tarantula]

Whats to stop a melee guy from killing your tower wielding swordsman, and then using his spiffy invulerable shield to then walk up toward gun toting enemies deflecting off all the ranged attacks just the same. What about turning it around (so the curve of the shield is facing the enemy) with c4 or c12 strapped to the other side? Does the blast break through the invulnerable shield? Making a super deadly shaped charge that they can use at will? What if I shoot a shield wielder with a missile, rocker, grenade? What about the bullet eaters? What happens when they're hit by a panther round? What about the shield holders? Whats to stop a troll from grabbing two tower shields, and using them as gigantic clubbed weapons to parry things with. Those are just stuff off the top of my head of how players can use the non-mechanics against the GM. The invulnerable shield particularly is a problem, since it could be looted off the carriers once they're dead. Even if its cybernetically attached, you just need to cut off the arm, and figure it out once you're back at home.

[Vaevictis]

If I were a character, I would generally take exception to rule bending on grunts. The fact of the matter is, characters have to play by the rules, and so should most of the NPCs.

Exceptions should be either rare and on "unique" type creatures (super-villians, great dragons, etc), or equally available to the PCs. IMHO.

Also, do keep in mind that a 2/3 chance to completely deflect an attack, irrespective of how skilled and/or successful the attack is, is just insane. Crunch time. Character spends edge, because it absolutely positively must hit. Character, beating the odds, scores 9 successes! Awesome. Aw, crap. Sorry, shield dude rolled a 3, wiping out all of your successes. That, my friend, is what we in the trade call "bullsh*t." ;)

[PH3NOmenon]

[Edward]

As a player I would find your setup very annoying, the rules represent the way the world works, and my characters usually are knowledgeable about how the world works (at least in there aria of specialty) if you change the rules without warning I am not going to know what my character can and cannot do, I am going to take an action that the rules say should have a high chance of success and your unannounced house rule (witch only affects that one character) is going to stuff me up completely.

Rolling 30 dice only takes 30 seconds (ok 60 seconds if you don’t have enough dice)

Buying 7 or 8 successes dose not mean you’re immune to damage, just that an attacker would need ether heavy weapons or auto fire to damage you.

A great big shield would provide armor. I don’t know if it exists in SR4 yet but the ballistic riot shield would work well for the shield character.

Or you could just read the rules (and fill in gaps with good judgment) and have enemies use cover and maneuverability to best advantage.

Edward

[Trucido]

I absolutely understand everybodies apprehensions, and I am happy to read them since my intention was to gather the general feel and opinions about it. I could find a counter-answer to every withdrawl, and every withdrawl could find a counter-answer to that. With that being said, once again, thank you much for your input. For the most part it will be taken into account and factored into the run. If any of you would like, I will post after run feelings on how it went around tuesday after it's conclusion. Thanks again!

[Tarantula]

I'd really like to hear how you'll handle a player getting a hold of one of your tower shield swordsman shields.

[chewy01234]

Hey trucido here is an idea...

GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!

GOD DAMMIT!! GM'S think they are fucking gods and can do whatever the hell they want. Why not just have your party fight a magical leviathon resistant to all spells and metal of all kinds....with a body of 96.

You think you are soooo cool don't you. So so so elitest. You commy bastards are all the same. All the same I tell you.


GO BACK TO RUSSIA!!!!!!!!!

[Trucido]

Well, the way I have it planned is simply that the shields they are using are just medieval tower shields. If they wanna grab one, feel free. They'll probably be a little bit weaker than your everyday riot or tazer shield, yanno, given that they're medieval and all. The effect comes from the men behind the shields. I've designed them as adepts and the shields are there as a utility to an advanced form of missile parry. So they can gather all the shields they want. If they really want.

[Trucido]

That's it Chewwy! It's on!

Boys get your guns! And pair up in twos! The man in the front gets a rifle! The man in the back gets a clip!

FOR THE MOTHERLAND!!!!

[Teulisch]

Well, thats one way to start a counterproductive flamewar....

regarding your 'sheilds', please remember that using a sheild in melee gives you a penalty. a normal sheild gives a -1 penalty to ALL pysical tests (thats your attack, dodge, and parry as well). With the larger size of a tower sheild, i would suggest giving it a larger penalty. rather than 'deflecting' bullets, the most balanced thing to do would be to have the sheild act as cover- giving a -4 penalty to be hit.
if you want to keep your roll mechanic, i suggest having a special skill for the sheild, which also takes a penalty from the sheild (so its at skill+sttribute-penalty). Having the skill add to reaction for shooting atatcks without needing to use an action to dodge would be one way to do it. this permits players to use the strategy, but only if they want to learn an exotic skill for it. basicly you increase effective reaction with non-implant gear this way.
The final option is to allow a 'bullet parry' action with the skill. simple action, and you need to beat the attackers hits in an opposed tests. if you parry, you dont get the passive bonus vs that atatck. it basicly gives you stat(x3)+skill-penalty(x2) dice versus one attack. again, an option the players could get, if they want to spend karma on the skill.
if the players do get such skill, i suggest making the sheilds degrade when they take too much damage. you can fix it with armory skill, but you may need the right materials (which could require a simple run to get). those sheilds are way too big to conceal, wont fit in some cars, and probably have wheels on the bottom.

for your 'bullies', are they magical or technological? magical is very easy to explain away (Ares bug spirit experiment). tech is a bit more difficult. the palate factory already reduces damage taken- perhaps you 'bullies' have a much more extreme, possibly nanoware (beta-grade and up) version? this creates SOTA ware which is very valuable if you can steal any of it.

[Butterblume]

[Trucido]

The bullies I believe should be magical. I don't want to go into giving them anything but bioware if I were to go tech, because I don't want the party members going off and making a bazillion dollars off of some scrub with a nifty trick's collarbone.

[PH3NOmenon]

Meh, i used to worry about that too, i've had players cut off bodyparts of beaten baddies left and right... (pun intended)


But, if you just have a look at the rules for fencing such stuff, you'll find that if you let players have 10% of the listed value of used collarbones, you're giving them plenty. Ten percent is not a whole lot considering you're now driving around with a garbagebag full of bodyparts in the trunk of your car.

Then again, that would require those blasted rules again... confound it!