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> Armor & Encumberence, Did the writers take a trip to LSD land?
ShadowDragon8685
post Jun 7 2006, 11:00 AM
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Where the heck did this come from?

In SR4, only one layer of armor counts, no matter if you're wearing ten sets of armored clothing under your lined duster, and even your first item of armor can count against you for encumerance?

So despite the fact that it's an ultralight catsuit, without a body of 3 you can't wear it without slowing down? And somehow, adding a helmet also slows you down?

Who came up with this? I'm seriously gonna havta ask me DM to re-import the SR3 rules here. >_<

This pretty much makes a high body a REQUIREMENT, no matter WHO you are!
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Squinky
post Jun 7 2006, 02:01 PM
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Yeah, I personally dig it. A person in my group gave his shaman a body of 2, and was hopeing to wear an armored jacket. Now not only do we make fun of the fact that almost every attack against him will knock him down, but he has to wear armored clothing. Makes sense to me, really. If you are that concerned, give your character a body of three.
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ShadowDragon8685
post Jun 7 2006, 02:04 PM
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Not really. You have to be really stupid to wear a non-incredible armor poorly.

Full medieval platemail? Yeah, I can see screwing that up. A jacket that's as heavy and bulky as the leather trenchcoat you own, but just happens to be made of 6/4 kevlar suddenly topples you over and stumbles you around?
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Butterblume
post Jun 7 2006, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
So despite the fact that it's an ultralight catsuit, without a body of 3 you can't wear it without slowing down? And somehow, adding a helmet also slows you down?

The helmet doesn't count towards encumbrance, as is explicitly mentioned in the rules.

Also, you can wear your ultralight catsuit, at body 2, without slowing down if it's armor rating doesn't exceed 4/4.
One could argue, if it's 6/6 it isn't ultralight anymore...

And, after all, body 3 is kind of average. My Char has body 3, so no standard camouflage suit for him.
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ornot
post Jun 7 2006, 02:17 PM
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I got the impression from the description of the lined coat in both SR3 and SR4 that it has ballistic plates in it. The weight those would add would be significant.

Take your leather trenchcoat and fill the pockets with cans of beans, run around a bit and see how winded you feel. ^^

Aso note that 2 is considered a below average stat, with anyone who works out at all likely to have 3 or more Body. A lot of the armour has ratings around 6, so that works out alright.
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ShadowDragon8685
post Jun 7 2006, 02:20 PM
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QUOTE (ornot)
Take your leather trenchcoat and fill the pockets with cans of beans, run around a bit and see how winded you feel. ^^

I've done that, as a matter of fact. (Don't ask why.)

I didn't feel any more winded than a similar rate of excercize in my leather trenchcoat without beans, nor did it encumber my movement any. And I'd really consider myself to have a Body start of 2 or 1, and probably the Infirm negative quality as well.
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ornot
post Jun 7 2006, 02:26 PM
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I'd hazard a guess you're underestimating your own staying power ^^ After all, leather trench coats are pretty damned heavy, and I imagine you wear it a lot. For comparison see how much less encumbered you feel when not wearing it and running around (please note, I am not encouraging anyone to run around naked, with the possible exception of ShadowDragon, as that would be funny)

I'm very curious as to why you filled you trenchcoat pockets with cans of beans and ran around in the first place! Please, I must know!
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ShadowDragon8685
post Jun 7 2006, 02:33 PM
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I woulden't call it running around, and trust me as big as I am? If anything a 2 in Bod is generous.


As to why I was running around with cans of beans... >_<

It was a family barbeque, and there was much food going around. My idiot of a cousin had taken about 12 huge cans of baked beans outside to the grill, not realizing you don't cook baked beans on a grill. So I went outside to take them back in to my uncle who was manning the stove. >_<
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Tarantula
post Jun 7 2006, 02:38 PM
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Somehow, I wouldn't consider taking 12 cans of baked bins 'round back "running around" with them. Even if you ran the whole way, its hardly any distance at all.
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ornot
post Jun 7 2006, 03:54 PM
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Awwww... leave the little guy alone!

I think encumberance rules are something that just has to be governed at GM discretion.

As for armour, if they didn't have any restrictions every character would run around being nigh bullet proof. I recall an incident when I was playing SR3 when we had a bullet proof troll. Body fitted armour + lined coat + magical armour spell = damage resistant TNs of 2 vs pretty much any weapon you care to mention. He stood there, bullets pinging off of him, hacking an electronic door while 2 guards shot at him with SMGs on full auto.

With the number of dice added by most armour, layering in SR4 would have a similar effect.

I do like the new system whereby armour converts damage that does not exceed it to stun. Cuts down on lengthy recuperation times.
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Moon-Hawk
post Jun 7 2006, 03:59 PM
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I agree with limiting armor by body, to a degree. But it does seem a little extreme. I mean, with body 1 there is no armor that you can wear without encumbrance? That seems a little strict.
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ornot
post Jun 7 2006, 04:00 PM
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A Body 1 runner can wear a leather jacket with no penalty. For all the good it'd do
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Moon-Hawk
post Jun 7 2006, 04:02 PM
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I stand corrected. :S
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SuperSpy
post Jun 7 2006, 04:03 PM
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The only penalty to armor encumberance is to Agility and Reaction, right? So its not a matter of people feeling winded, it's a matter of bulky armor reducing one's finesse. When you watch a gymnast doing their routine, do they wear thick jeans and a heavy jacket? No. Could they do a lot of thier moves while wearing those? Probably. But they don't wear those becuase it's easier to do such things while wearing a leotard instead.

Now most female gymnasts probably have a Body of 1 or 2 I would guestimate. If you're a bigger person (i.e. more Body) and you also have high agility and reaction then you have trained your body to be still be flexible even with all that extra bulk - therefore it's not as big of deal when you add a bit of extra bulk on.

Hense, the encumberance rules make perfect sense to me.
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ShadowDragon8685
post Jun 7 2006, 04:22 PM
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Except they make it impossible to play a Shadowrunner properly. Because it impacts your reaction and shooting and dodging ability. I agree that layering should impose penalties, but not one set, for goodness sakes!
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Geekkake
post Jun 7 2006, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
Except they make it impossible to play a Shadowrunner properly. Because it impacts your reaction and shooting and dodging ability. I agree that layering should impose penalties, but not one set, for goodness sakes!

As much as it pains me, I concur. I ignore the armor encumberence rule unless they're relevant, such as layered armor. Otherwise, I assume armor is largely designed for normal range of motion.

However, if the guy in heavy armor is trying to somersault around...
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ShadowDragon8685
post Jun 7 2006, 04:35 PM
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I don't need heavy armor, just a catsuit that will let me survive a round or two without becoming the splatzor.
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Lebo77
post Jun 7 2006, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 7 2006, 11:22 AM)
Except they make it impossible to play a Shadowrunner properly. Because it impacts your reaction and shooting and dodging ability.

Impossible? Hardly.

Play a Hacker/Rigger or a mage comanding spirits, or a face doing the social thing and wear whatever armor you want. (Yes, the penilty applies to reacton, and therefore driving tests. This rule is stupid for people who are driving in full VR. Use Intuition instead.) So what if you are a little slower on the draw or worse at getting out of the way? The penilty only applies to things you are lousy at anyway. In a gunfight, go find some cover and put enough lead in the air to make them keep thier heads down. Leave the killing to the gunbummies.

[edit] Heck mages have the Armor spell. That does not require a specific body to use.
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Squinky
post Jun 7 2006, 04:37 PM
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It does hit folk below the average 3 stat pretty hard, but orks and trolls are loving it, heh. I stand by liking the rule, but it does kind of make a bad situation worse, leaving you with pretty much no damage mitigation ability. Really though, if you are planning to be physical at all, you need a body of 3 at least. Body isn't just how tough you are, it's a measure of your physical fitness (A gymnast in my mind would need a body of 3-4 at least to stand up to all the training). A person with a body of 2 would in my mind have difficultys in armor designed for the average person.
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SuperSpy
post Jun 7 2006, 04:39 PM
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QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)
I don't need heavy armor, just a catsuit that will let me survive a round or two without becoming the splatzor.

I don't have my book in front of me. Is there currently any stats for such a suit in SR4?
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Butterblume
post Jun 7 2006, 04:50 PM
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No.

I would probably give such a suit of armor 4 ballistic and 2 points of impact armor, but that's just me ;).
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ShadowDragon8685
post Jun 7 2006, 04:52 PM
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Actually, I do have a lot of gun-bunnying mixed in with my hacking. 500 BP + solo-player campaign will do that. And for said catsuit, I was using the Chameleon Suit + helmet.
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SuperSpy
post Jun 7 2006, 04:57 PM
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I wouldn't say that a chameleon suit is necessarily a catsuit. If it has kevlar plates in it then its not going to be completely flexable.

Remember that in Cannon Companion (3rd Ed.), the form fitting body armor had special rules when it came to armor stacking, so if a similar item is made available in Arsenal, it might have special rules as well.
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stevebugge
post Jun 7 2006, 05:19 PM
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Just for the record from personal experience.

In college I had a rainjacket/parka that could hold a 12 pack of beer in the pockets. After walking 6 blocks from campus to a house party I was definitely a little winded and ready to crack one open. Mind you in college when I tried this I was in pretty good shape (ah the good old days) I was still training pretty hard for both Hoops and Rowing which would under this sytem probably translate to a 2-3 body.
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Brahm
post Jun 7 2006, 05:30 PM
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I hear you ShadowDragon8685, although I don't agree with all your issues on armor.

I've proposed to my GM a similar character, who is incidentally an NPC military pilot of an aircraft we hijacked. I don't know what the GM had written down for armor, we haven't had to shoot the pilot. Yet. 8) It looks like me might actually show some compasion and just cut him loose since he can't really go back to his former employer now. Which is why I'm considering taking him over as a PC.

I initially had the character at a Body 2, although in the end I think I bumped it up to a 3. What I have currently requested is that he be wearing a jungle print/green Nomex flight suit (Fire 3, no Balistic or Impact armor) overtop of Half-Body Formfitting Armor. That's a CC item that covers torso, hips, and thights. Not in SR4 yet but I'll be very surprised if it doesn't show up in Arsenal in some form. Since armor layering doesn't work like it did I'm guessing that any item intended to allow multiple armor pieces will be statted like helmets and shields. So what I did was just use the Half-Body Formfitting Armor numbers converted to that format. Balistic/Impact of +3/+1. Although arguably it likely should get dropped to +2/+1 since the old layering effectively halved armor when you layered it.

Maybe they'll not allow layering of it and just leave it at a normal 3/1, but that kind of defeats the purpose of the custom tailored fit underoos where it becomes like second skin. Orthoskin and dermal sheathing still stacks after all. In any case for the Body 2 wimps right now there is Armor Clothing at B/I 4/0. Obviously not a lot of help in a fist fight, but it'll give you something to try keep your inards in when the bullets fly.

Unfortunately my situation is somewhat complicated by the fact that the GM apparently did up at least some of the stats for him already. So retconning would be a requirement, but not really that much since all the pilot has really rolled of import so far was Willpower to resist a spell. I find out by Saturday what he'll ok and what he won't, and what the options are. He did already do a bit of a veto on my idea for the sidearm. Well it was more like it was already selected but it hadn't been mentioned in-game yet. But it was definately along the lines of what I was thinking, a very compact SMG.

I personally would allow a custom chameleon suit with lesser armor or no armor at all. Expensive and not off the rack, but doable. But like you said you are now at the whim of the GM. Hope you chose well when selecting the people you play with. ;)
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