[X] My Assistant

[Teulisch]

lets look at the options for various characters.

Body 1: leather jacket (2/2)
Body 2: Armor clothing (4/0)
Body 3: Armor vest, actioneer business clothes, cameleon suit, lined coat, urban explorer (this is the average consumer)
Body 4: Armor jacket, Camoflage suit
Body 5: Armor jacket+helmet, or full body armor.
Body 6: full body armor + helmet (12/10)
Body 7: armor jacket + Balistic Sheild (14/10, -1 all physical tests from sheild)
Body 8: armor jacket + helmet + balistic sheild (15/12), or FBA + Sheild.

So, if you have a body 1 or 2 guy, its clear that you cant take many hits in combat. body 3 has a lot of options, as thats the majority of the consumer base. the guys at body 5+ dont really have to worry about it unless they want to go out of their way to get a ton of armor.

generaly, your gun-bunnies will have a variety of options for armor. you need high-protection, or discrete style, or concealment, you go with a different option.

The average character in shadowrun will have body 3 and 6 balistic armor. thats 9 soak, for 3 hits on average. add in the average 3 reaction (which most players will have closer to 6), and you have damage mitigation at 4 boxes per hit. average attacker will have 8 dice less penalties, for 2 average hits, 1 after defenders reaction. so on average, a weapon will do DV -3 damage per shot to the mythical 'average' runner. and that is where combat is going to balance.

Body 1 will have 3 dice for soak with that jacket, meaning he takes DV -1 per hit. Body 2 will have 6, meaning DV -2 per hit. This translates into (DV-body) damge per average hit, with the system being skewed at the high-body end due to a lack of stronger armors for orks/trolls.

body 1 or 2 will drop in 3 pistol shots (even light pistol shots).
body 3 can take 5 shots from a heavy pistol.
body 4 can take about 10 hits from a heavy pistol.
body 5+, with enough armor, can shrug off heavy pistol shots from mooks.

We are working in a system, where any character who wants to can focus on defense, can be tough enough that most low-end mooks cant hurt them in combat. this allows for us to portray a bad-ass who can walk calmy through gunfire, while killing enemies with percise shots that always hit. some people want that. same person will either take cover or die quickly the moment an MG opens up with a full burst- thats realism sticking in its ugly head.

What the current encumberace rules do, is say that you can get an average soak equal to your body, or higher if you want a penalty greater than 1 per soak gained (-3/2 soak average). this creates a damage-mitigation mechanic for body, and it also says that higher body takes stun from stronger DV. this is an equipment-based mechanic, which means you need to keep up with SOTA.

a reaction penalty makes you easier to hit- -3 reaction for a +2 soak is a good deal in terms of mitigation, as you take less damage overall. the agility penalty meakes it harder for you to hit them, and a -3 there means one less hit, and one less damage to the enemy. so the two together means the fight takes a lot longer.

[Cang]

Dropping in my :nuyen: 2, I was in the military, and wearing a kevlar vest all day got really heavy and uncomforable. I cant imagine a long jacket made of that stuff. I hope you have a personal cooling system inside your undies.. beacuse it is gonna get hot.

[coolgrafix]

I'm curious as to how these rules are actually supposed to be read in the first place. How does the zeitgeist interpret the armor/encumbrance penalty rules? Read on for two differing interpretations.

SR4 page 149, under Armor and Encumbrance
-----------------------------------------
"Too much armor, however, can slow a character down. If either of a character's armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a –1 modiier to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof) that his Body is exceeded. Note that this may affect Initiative as well. If a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their ratings together before comparing to Body."

Consider the following two example characters from SR4...

=========
EXAMPLE 1
=========
Covert Ops Specialist (rules as written)
---------------------
Body: 2
Armor: Armor Jacket 8/6

Her Armor Jacket exceeds her Body x 2. We then determine how many points her Body is exceeded by...

Armor - Body = Exceeded Amount
8 - 2 = 6

For every 2 points incur -1 Agility and Reaction penalty...

Exceeded Amount / 2 = Penalty
6 / 2 = 3

Drone Rigger (rules as written)
------------
Body: 3
Armor: Armor Jacket 8/6

His Armor Jacket exceeds his Body x 2. We then determine how many points his Body is exceeded by...

Armor - Body = Exceeded Amount
8 - 3 = 5

For every 2 points incur -1 Agility and Reaction penalty...

Exceeded Amount / 2 = Penalty
5 / 2 = 3

Should this be interpreted as...

"If either of a character's armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a –1 modiier to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof) that his Body x 2 is exceeded. Note that this may affect Initiative as well. If a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their ratings together before comparing to Body x 2."

Consider the same two example characters again...

=========
EXAMPLE 2
=========

Covert Ops Specialist (rules as meant?)
---------------------
Body: 2
Armor: Armor Jacket 8/6

Her Armor Jacket exceeds her Body x 2. We then determine how many points her Body x 2 is exceeded by...

Armor - (Body x 2) = Exceeded Amount
8 - 4 = 4

For every 2 points incur -1 Agility and Reaction penalty...

Exceeded Amount / 2 = Penalty
4 / 2 = 2

Drone Rigger (rules as meant?)
------------
Body: 3
Armor: Armor Jacket 8/6

His Armor Jacket exceeds his Body x 2. We then determine how many points his Body is exceeded by...

Armor - (Body x 2) = Exceeded Amount
8 - 6 = 2

For every 2 points incur -1 Agility and Reaction penalty...

Exceeded Amount / 2 = Penalty
2 / 2 = 1

Typical Armors (just for reference)
--------------
Armor Clothing: 4/0
Actioneer Business Clothes: 5/3
Armor Vest: 6/4
Armor Jacket: 8/6
Camouflage Suit: 8/6

[Butterblume]

I am not sure what you are aiming at ;).

[Squinky]

[Brahm]

@coolgrafix

Just don't exceed the limit, mm'kay? :D

It seems pretty clear that as written it is the former. Which is really nasty. Especially to high Body characters that exceed Body*2 by only a little bit. Maybe that is why they put it in that way? The later certainly does make it a lot tamer. A Body 2 character wearing an Armored Vest gains those extra 2 dice for soaking at the price of only 1 Reaction die.

[Shrike30]

I imagine armored jackets as being like modern military combat armor (in a jacket rather than a vest) with extra ballistic cloth covering the arms. There's some allowance for style, but the book describes them as being obviously armor. Once you figure in trauma plates, the combat armor of today usually weighs upwards of 25 pounds, without protecting the arms. I really don't have a problem with that slowing the "average" person down to the tune of one less die on Agility and Reaction.

The last time I wore a bulletproof vest, I was noticeably smaller. These days, I'm about 6'1", 215 lbs, and while not a total gym-monkey, I'm fairly fit... Body 4 would be a reasonable SR translation. The last time I threw on a chainmail shirt (which weighs about 30 pounds, pretty much the same as modern combat armor, and is much more flexible), I was definitely noticing how the added weight affected my movement. The fact that someone of "average" body will net a -1 from wearing an armored jacket seems pretty reasonable to me, especially once you figure in that it triples the number of dice they resist with using Impact, and nearly quadruples the number of dice they resist with using Ballistic.

[-X-]

Warning, house rule alert!

I tend to run slightly more cinematic games than most, but I use the armor rules as written with one tiny (huge) alteration. For armor encumbrance purposes only I treat everyone as being body+1. It still puts a significant penalty on folks with low body, makes those with high body even more insane, but overall seems to make things a little smoother and a little less brutal for all the Body 2 pedestrians/grunts (There has to be plenty since Body 3 is just the average).

[Voran]

[Shrike30]

Seriously, I don't see the problem here. Take someone with body 2, stick them in an armored long coat or a vest, and they get a -1 to Agility and Reaction. What's so problematic or unbelievable about that? Body armor isn't exactly comfortable or light.

[Shadow]

Even "light" body armor, like a Level I Kevlar vest is encumbering. I am not sure how much it weighs, but it is stiff and riggid. It makes hard just to sit down. The key here though is that you should make a character with 3 body, or suck up the penalty. Don't wine about not being physically fit enough to use body armor. Shadowrunning is hard, and only the fit survive.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[SuperSpy]

[Austere Emancipa...]

You would, if the audience taking potshots at you with handguns were a common occurrence in gymnastics. It would reduce their mobility slightly, even making some of the more outlandish maneuvers impossible (because it would reduce their ability to bend their torsos), but a 2kg flexible vest would absolutely not stop a person in that good a physical condition from performing something as simple as a cartwheel or backflip.

[Lebo77]

[Austere Emancipa...]

No disagreement there. I just felt SuperSpy's message overestimated the negative effect of light body armor on a person's mobility.

[coolgrafix]

The issue for me isn't whether armor in real life slows people down. Sure it does. And it's fucking hot and uncomfortable.

The issue is how the rule is meant to be interpreted. Actually, the deeper issue is why the armor encumbrance rules still exist at all in SR4 since the whole point of the edition is to streamline obtuse rules. In all areas of the game reality simulation was sacrificed in order to streamline the rules... something I eventually agreed with in concept and now applaud. That this section of the rules didn't get trimmed is in my mind an oversight.

[Moon-Hawk]

Body armor makes backflips more difficult. Fine. I'll agree with that. I mean, I don't know, but it sounds pretty darn reasonable.
But isn't this penalty applied to all agility tests? Does an armor vest make it more difficult to shoot a pistol? That seems like more of a strech to me.

[SuperSpy]

[SuperSpy]

[Squinky]

Hey, you can have an intuition based gunslinger....Just make them blind, heh.

When doing firearm drills (crouching, laying on my gut, shooting around cover) with my old Glock in my vest, I would have preffered to not have it on. I could see it translating to a -1 die or so in a game.

[6thDragon]

I have spent a significant amount of time wearing body armor in Iraq and for an additional 5 years before that, and I can tell you the heavier stuff can severely hinder your ability to move around. That being said, it was always those with greater physical strength who were affected less. In my games my group has always houseruled that armor limits are linked to strength instead of body. We did the same in SR3 and were sad to see that even with changing it in SR4 they didn't get it right. Just my 2 :nuyen: In SR3 it made no sense why an orc or troll (lower quickness but higher strength) would be effected more than an elf (higher quickness but lower strength). I still don't see why someones endurance and fitness would have a greater impact on their ability to remain mobil in heavy armor than someones overall physical strength. I can understand over time someone with higher body would not become tired as quickly, but I still think strength is the better choice.

[Moon-Hawk]

Maybe instead of comparing armor to Bodyx2 it should be compared to Body+Strength. How's that for a house rule?

[Brahm]

[SuperSpy]