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 Rigging/Hacking: help!, How to? |
 Jun 8 2006, 04:43 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332  |
If this sort of thing has been asked before, would someone be so kind as to point me in the general direction of the thread?
When I first started reading the rules and making characters, the whole drone rigging and hacking/stealing drones sounded like it had a lot of potential. Unfortunately, I am having trouble understanding how it's supposed to work. Can someone step me through the process(es) of taking over another rigger's drone? Is a device considered the same as a node? So we could find wireless node in hidden mode, and then hack into it? Then what would we do while we were there? You can't jump into it that way, but you could give it orders, right? Including accepting our rigger's signal? And if we've hacked the device, then our icon is in that node. If the rigger is jumped into it, would he be able to do anything about you? Would his icon be there, and able to be crashed? Or Could we simply intercept the wireless traffic, and then edit it, making the drone accept your own rigger signal, and not accepting its original controller's? If you can spoof the drone into accepting your signal, does the owner have any way of knowing you're there, besides seeing what it does? Does any of this make sense? What am I missing? |
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Jun 8 2006, 02:50 PM
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#2
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
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Jun 9 2006, 04:31 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
Thanks Aaron. That helps.
I find the commlink of the controlling rigger (though various routes), and do an analyze to determine his ID (I don't have to hack in, just watch him?). Then, I can use that to spoof orders to the drone, and tell it to recognize my rigger, instead of its owner. Then we fly. Not real quick, but it sounds easy. But what about directly hacking into a drone? It seems like that would be easier. You have to locate the hidden node/drone. Then hack in. Then you just edit the subscription list (after defeating the IC). Does the rigger have any recourse to your actions, once he learns you're in there? |
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Jun 9 2006, 05:43 AM
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#4
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Correct. It's not quick at all, but doable if your team is pinned down.
It's that darn subscription list that prevents that in the first place. Sure, you could locate it, but it's set to respond only to its owner's commlink, and will ignore your attempts to connect to it to hack your way in. Once you're in, assuming you've altered the subscription list so it only responds to you, he'd have to do the same things you did to get it back. Oh, while I'm posting and thinking about it at the same time, if you're facing an adversarial rigger that has jumped into a drone, hit the drone with a directional jammer. Assuming he's far enough away, that will not only knock him out of the drone, but give him dumpshock, too. |
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Jun 10 2006, 02:28 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
So you hack in, give yourself admin access, and change the subscription list to regognize only your team's rigger. The difficulties involved with this are... the node gets an analyze test to detect you. If it does, it can alert the owner, shut the port or launch IC. Anything else that I missed?
Sounds like a good plan, but I was torn on whether to jam the drone or the rigger. i'd probably go with the rigger, because he's probably got control over more drones, and you never know if he's rigging the a drone or just directing it. besidse, if you jam the drone, you can't steal it. But then, the rigger probably has better ECCM on his own commlink. I just mounted a directional jammer on a Steel Lynx. We'll see how well that works. |
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Jun 10 2006, 05:22 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
Anyone else want to jump in here?
Now what about drones? The table on p. 212 says crawler drones generally have a signal rating of 4. The drone chart in the back of the book gives pilot ratings (3) - is that the same as System? (Which limits the size of the programs that the drone can run.) What about firewall? If pilot is not the same as system, and there's no mention of drones coming with firewall, then does that mean we've got to buy an OS (or jsut the programs - table p.228) for each drone? Or do we assume the firewall is the same as the pilot? |
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Jun 10 2006, 05:45 AM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
the signal rating given there is for the drone's sensors. ie, it really just indicates a typical range of all the different sensory gear the drone has. if you will turn to page 325, you will see there that small/medium and large drones all have a signal rating for their sensor packages of 4 (as default, at any rate). this merely indicates the range of the sensors. the information for the drone's other matrix attributes is found on page 214, and indicates that drones typically have a device rating of 3 (ie all matrix attributes are 3, unless otherwise specified). this works quite nicely with the fact that all the drones listed in the BBB have a pilot of 3 (which replaces the system rating for anything that you don't use, but rather give orders to pretty much). The drone comes with a firewall of 3 also, and a response and signal of 3 (so it can scan further away then it can be accessed wirelessly from). you could buy it a higher firewall if you wanted, and it should install normally. in order to increase pilot, however, you need a higher response. signal could be increased by the normal way, but i personally recommend a satellite link if you want higher signal... cheaper, more effective, readily available, and harder to jam. |
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Jun 10 2006, 04:36 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
Okay, that was one of my theories - that the pilot rating is similar to the device rating, which means that all stock traits are 3. (Too bad the BBB doesn't say so. You just have to piece it together from various parts of the book.)
So my drone's broadcast signal is 400 meters. Thanks, Jaid! |
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Jun 11 2006, 06:02 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
Okay, I've got another question.
1. Find the controling rigger - Detect hidden node 2. Decrypt it. 3. Get the rigger's broadcast ID - Analyze 4. Use the ID to command the drone to unsubscribe the original rigger, and give it whatever orders you want, including subscribing a new rigger. Do I have to Scan to locate the drone so I can spoof it? |
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Jun 11 2006, 10:27 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
1. detect the drones node
2. intercept traffic 3. decrypt traffic 4. analyzeID (the ID must be in the traffic) 5. spoof command with ID or 5. spoof your ID with ID 6. hack into the drones node (try admin acces to fully overtake it) |
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Jun 12 2006, 02:46 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
If you're talking about hacking into the drone, I believe the steps would be: 1. Detect node (drone) in hidden mode 2. Hack in at admin level 3. Give it new orders 4. Deal with IC or whatnot Yes? No? |
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Jun 12 2006, 05:33 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
question- what if the rigger is 'jumped into' the drone in full VR? how would that affect your attempt to hijack a drone? Even with 3 actions a turn from hot sim, one has to be spent on a complex action to pilot.
would this simply resolve as cybercombat? and if you crash the rigger's commlink, what happens to the drone in that time between rigger going offline, and hacker spoofing control? along this train of thought, what if a rigger is physicaly in a vehicle which could be piloted remotely? just turn the commlink port off? |
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Jun 12 2006, 09:41 AM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
No, they are the steps given above 1-6 using the lower 5/6. Thats why I wrote them. |
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Jun 12 2006, 09:42 AM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I would say: The "jumped in" rigger notices the hack when the system notices the hack. |
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Jun 13 2006, 03:15 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
I know, but that doesn't make any sense to me, so I replied with something that does make sense to me. So I'll be more specific. You said... 1. detect the drones node 2. intercept traffic 3. decrypt traffic 4. analyzeID (the ID must be in the traffic) 5. spoof your ID with ID 6. hack into the drones node (try admin acces to fully overtake it) I didn't know what you meant by "spoof your ID with ID". I guess you meant make the drone think that you have the proper ID (I would call that "spoofing the drone" but that's just my terminology, I guess.) Aside from that, you have things just a little bit out of order. decrypting must be done before intercepting (p225). And detecting the drone's node doesn't have to be done until just before the... oh. If you're hacking, you don't need ID and spoofing. You only need the ID if you're going to try and fool the drone into accepting your commands. If you're hacking, you just detect the drone's node and attack it. So that brings us back to my steps 1-4. It sounds like we basically agree on the spoofing style of hacking. |
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Jun 13 2006, 03:30 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
That's a good question. It is a little unclear what state a rigger is in when he is jumped into a drone. I would say that the drone is an extension of his body. What the drone sees, he sees. When he tries to run, the drone moves. Since he can only see what the drone sees, he has no awareness of what is going on inside it or its computer. I think that if you're jumped, the only thing you can do is drive the drone. And the only way you'll be able to tell if there's a hacker in your drone, is if it goes on active alert and gives you a warning.
It depends on how the rigger is driving. If he's logged in to the vehicle through his wireless commlink, then technically he's piloting it remotely, and he loses control if you shut the port. If he's got a datajack and a cable (or hands on the wheel), then shutting the port will not do any good. |
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Jun 13 2006, 04:17 AM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I think that I'd prevent a hacker from hacking a currently rigged drone. The drones software is overridden by the impulses of the rigger.
Alternatively one could rule it as a cyber combat test instead... Just throwing it out there ^^ |
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Jun 14 2006, 03:44 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
I don't think it would be overriden, exactly. It's just that the programs that are loaded (pilot, clearsight, etc.) would not be in use.
Cyber combat? Like assuming that the rigger's icon is occupying the node, so the hacker has to fight him? But if the rigger's icon is there, that means he's watching the node, not the drone's surroundings. It would make more sense for the rigger's icon to be there if he's on the subscription list, and issuing commands to the drone. But a hacker's icon doesn't have to be in a drone in order to command it. |
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Jun 14 2006, 08:47 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
yes, you are right. Still thats kind of counter intuitive . . . (how can you hack something you havent intercepted?)
I would say that you have to detect the node first before you want to intercept traffic. After you intercept traffic there is no need to detect the node, you already know its Access ID because of the traffic interception and decryption (all the protocol data must be in the traffic).
No, if the drone is subscribed to the other riggers comlink (whch everybody will do) you have to spoof your ID.
mostly |
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Jun 15 2006, 05:14 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
I guess because if you have no idea what the traffic is transmitting, you can't consider it to be intercepted? But more to the point, let's assume you're trying to intercept some specific traffic, like the a rigger/drone exchange. You have no idea if you've even got it, until you've decrypted it. There are hundreds of wireless signals in the air, and you have to get the right one. Just don't ask me why you don't have to make a decrypt check for every random signal until you find the right one. ;-)
This makes sense. But is there always traffic between the comm and the drone? Or only when an order is being given? If traffic is continuous, then that would be fine. If not, then there may be no traffic to intercept. But that's way too problematical, so I'll go with what you said.
No again. If you can get the ID, you can spoof. That's where you pretend you're the rigger, and you lob commands to his drone. Hacking is a totally different method. That's Hacking on the Fly (p221), and it's completely regardless of subscriptions and IDs. It's a hacking+exploit extended test, versus the Firewall. Once you succeed, your icon is in the node/drone, and its at your mercy. |
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Jun 15 2006, 06:16 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
You can not hack into a node that is not accepting your traffic. Thats what subscribing does and thats why you have to spoof your ID to hack in.
This issue has been discussed numerous times in this forum. Just do a search. |
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Jun 16 2006, 02:57 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
That's insane. The hacking on the fly section doesn't say anything about having to gain ID or intercept traffic. Okay, I'll try a search. |
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Jun 16 2006, 03:22 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 4-March 06 From: Pueblo Corporate Council Member No.: 8,332 |
Can't find anything in a search. "hacking" turns about a third of the posts here, and adding one more word turns up no results.
I'll reiterate. Neither detect hidden node, nor hacking on the fly refers in any way to using ID. And if you have ID, you don't have to hack. That's why they call it hacking. Notice also, that p222 says that once a hacking hacker is inside the node, he can do anything that an authorized user can do - it doesn't say anything about having to spoof. So if spoofing requires ID, then why would hacking also require ID, when it doesn't require spoofing? People may have discussed it, but there are no rules as written that back up that theory. |
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Jun 16 2006, 03:34 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 8-June 06 From: Present day, Detroit Member No.: 8,683 |
isn't hacking a drone and crashing it a viable option? that is without going through the commlink first? i'm unconvinced you have to go through a subscribed drones characters commlink to do everything.
it seems to me the linking and subscribing action is to keep out random or accidental access, not make something unhackable. plus wind, here's at least one of the threads: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...and,drones&st=0 |
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Jun 16 2006, 04:07 AM
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#25
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Perhaps this will help convince you. I'd like you to find someone you know and/or trust, and ask them to do a little practical exercise with you. The goal is for you to instruct them to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Make sure that the peanut butter is creamy (anything else isn't real peanut butter), but the jelly could actually be jam or preserves. In fact, construct a small flowchart of options for the jelly, asking questions of your friend like the time of day and the like; the specifics aren't important (except the peanut butter type), the point is that this represents the giving of instructions and queries from the hacker (that's you) to the drone (that's your friend; if it's not a friend, we'll just say he or she is for now). That would be normal interaction with a drone. Next, insert an instruction to chuck the ingredients into the garbage disposal. If you have no garbage disposal, remove the word "disposal" from the equation. If you have no garbage, I don't want to talk to you anymore. If the person you are performing this exercise with is not actually a friend, feel free to insert instructions to stab himself or herself in the nostrils with the knife. This simulates the attack program giving conflicting and destructive input to the target drone. Now, have your friend put his or her fingers in his or her ears, shut his or her eyes tightly, and hum "God Save the Queen" very loudly. Actually, it could be "Ozar Midrashim" by Information Society for all I care; it doesn't matter what the song is, as long as the humming is loud. Have him or her only listen to instructions that come from your mom (be sure to tell him or her this before he or she starts the humming). Now, try the above exercises again. Get anywhere? No? How about when you pretend that the instructions come from your mom and actually convince your friend (or whatever) that this is the case? Hope that helped. |
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