 Dudukain's Dedicated Character Thread, I wanted one too.... |
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 Jun 13 2006, 05:00 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 10-April 06 Member No.: 8,448  |
Note that you should have unarmed combat to defend, or dodge(but since dodge sucks, get unarmed combat). You do not want to be helpless until you draw your blade(which has not been specified yet, either, if I did not miss something)
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Jun 13 2006, 05:14 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 10-June 06 Member No.: 8,690 |
Switched Armorer to Unarmed Combat.
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Jun 13 2006, 05:39 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Ok, I'll bite. Why wouldn't he use Dodge? I've used it before and it seemed a very wise investment. Please elaborate. =) |
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Jun 13 2006, 06:06 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 10-April 06 Member No.: 8,448 |
Dodge is only required for the full dodge action. In melee it can be replaced by unarmed combat to deflect attacks, which is a better investment, since you can also use it to attack. You can even use full parry in melee to get the same results as with full dodge.
In ranged combat, of course, full dodge is your only option if you wish to increase your chances of not getting hit. At the cost of sacrificing your actions this phase. You sacrifice your chances of hitting at all for a slightly better chance of not getting hit. That simply is not a fair trade. It is always a better decision to attack yourself and maybe blow an opponent to the ground. Attack is the best defense, because it weakens your opponents. In SR, unlike many other RPGs, this is so true. While it may be cool to get out of a bullet rain like Neo, it does not work in your favor. Because you do not look cool anymore when lying lifelessly on the ground. For creating a working dodge-monster, use the spell or the adept power combat sense, but that is a different story. |
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Jun 13 2006, 06:26 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
I was very recently caught out in the open with multiple opponents targeting me. As I scrambled to get to cover, dodge came in VERY handy and saved my ass. Waiting around to try to kill them all was NOT a good choice. =)
Go dodge! |
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Jun 13 2006, 06:42 PM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Yeah I agree that you don't need dodge. But, you do need gymnastics instead. You can use that during a full defense in place of dodge, and the others (parrying with weapon or unarmed) for the other instances. If you don't have a character with parrying ability along with gymnastics, then just buy dodge. I hope that makes sense.
Gymnastics is better to me all around. From a roleplaying perspective it is something someone can actually be trained in, I wonder where they have dodging schools? Also, for the skill points you also get a good skill that you can use elsewhere, hell you can even specialize in dance with it I beleive. It's also easier to upgrade. If you are an adept Gymnastics cost .25 per point to increase the skill, while dodge runs a .5. Cyber-folks can only up dodge with reflex recorders, while gymanstics can benefit from enhanced articulation + synthacardium +reflex recorder for a total of up to +5 on gymnastics (and some on other athletic skills) if you wanted to be a total monkey. |
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Jun 13 2006, 07:23 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 10-April 06 Member No.: 8,448 |
Multiple opponents? How many? In my opinion, there are just two scenarios. The first is, there are just a few enemies and it makes sense to shoot and hope to knock one of them out. Since we play shadowrun and not a fantasy RPG, it works. This way, their firepower is effectively reduced. The second is, there are many enemies and you do not have a chance to survive the next seconds, full dodge or not. Either use fast talk or pray. If the characters are not far superior to the enemies, this is plainly the way it works. The average shadowrunner has 3 reaction and 3 dodge, 6 dice. Also 3 agility and 3 firearms, 6 dice. Wait, smartlink, 8 dice. Specialisations make it 8 vs 10. This is against one opponent. Remember, each of them has 2 shots and probably an automatic weapon. That is -2 to your dice pool after each enemy has fired his shots. Full dodge is useless. If you play at a more extreme powerlevel, full dodge might be an option. But in this case there is also a second option: Use your full auto MG and blast them to hell. Even a third option: Abuse spirit movement and levitation to fly away at 720 km/h. |
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Jun 13 2006, 07:53 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 16-December 05 From: new jack city Member No.: 8,077 |
6 languages... wow. Even linguists in the military only learn one other language. You might want to drop it to a max of 3 languages and get other knowledge skills.. like military tactics, history of the armed forces, Medical Techniques, How to kill a man with a balled up news paper, etc.
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Jun 13 2006, 08:10 PM
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#34
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 10-June 06 Member No.: 8,690 |
I don't see anything in the rulebook about using gymnastics to dodge.
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Jun 13 2006, 08:23 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
SR4 page 151 under Gymnastics Dodge. =) "Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks." While I'm at it... "Full Dodge: Character on full defense may add their Dodge skill to their dice pool when defending against incoming attacks. So a character on full defense against a ranged attack rolls Reaction + Dodge, whereas a character on full defense against a melee attack could roll Reaction + Dodge + Dodge, or Reaction + melee combat skill + Dodge. Full dodge may be used against both ranged and melee attacks." "Full Parry: Characters who go on full parry roll their Reaction + (melee combat skill x 2) against any and all melee attacks made against them. Full parry may not be used against ranged attacks." |
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Jun 13 2006, 08:38 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Note that Gymnastics Dodge is only an option when on Full Defense. The normal Dodge skill has a myriad of other times it can be used, such as with normal melee attacks. Gymnastics only helps with Full Defense. Boo! =(
See Defending Against Melee Attacks, SR4 page 147. |
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Jun 13 2006, 08:49 PM
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#37
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 4-June 06 From: Kansas City Member No.: 8,644 |
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a bullet. |
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Jun 13 2006, 08:54 PM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Honestly, I don't find the Spirit Bane: Watcher Spirits to be that munchkiny. At first glance it might appear so... until you figure how many watcher spirits could potentially be around that decided to materialize and start harrassing you and making you stand out.
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Jun 14 2006, 07:52 AM
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#39
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
For defending in Melee I use my unarmed combat skill. All dodge can be covered by two skills which are both to my mind nessecary for most characters already, why waste points in a third skill I can already do everything from? |
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Jun 14 2006, 02:44 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
All shadowrunners are not gymnasts. It's not D&D where everyone and their brother has Tumbling. =)
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Jun 14 2006, 02:51 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Let me see if I can summarize this succinctly and correctly...
If you're a gymnast, and a good one, who also has a good melee/unarmed skill then there's no reason to ALSO purchase Dodge. |
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Jun 14 2006, 02:54 PM
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#42
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Mystery Archaeologist Group: Members Posts: 2,906 Joined: 19-September 05 From: The apple tree Member No.: 7,760 |
Most runners find jumping a useful thing to do. The buy Gymnastics to do this. They are not olympic level or anything.
Plus no one in any of my SR4 gangs has ever used the action to dodge. They all prefer to return fire, or take some sort of action other than getting clear. |
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Jun 14 2006, 04:15 PM
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#43
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
Everyone having some tumbling ability makes more sense than being trained in "Dodging" Heh. To the folks who say full defense is worthless, what happens when combat starts, you are a character with multiple passes, and the opposing street sam with the gyromount fires at you with his Ares Alpha? You have two choices then, lose a combat turn to add some more dice to dodge and reduce the damage, or keep that combat turn and hope you aren't turned to mincemeat. I know which one I would pick. |
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Jun 14 2006, 04:34 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Not all skills are "trained" in the traditional sense. Dodge is one example. Knowledge in Seattle Megacorp Politics is another. Both examples are skills that are just picked up by experience on the street. =) |
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Jun 14 2006, 04:47 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
It seems strange that jumping in SR4 is based on Gymnastics rather than Athletics. High jumpers and long jumpers aren't gymnasts, they're athletes. Gymnasts are known for balance, flexibility, upper body strength, and grace... all of which makes sense in the context of the Gymnastic Dodge. It doesn't make sense to me in the context of high/long jumping.
Note to self: AHA! There is no Athletics skill anymore. Just the Athletics skill group. This was confusing because there are a number of examples in the book using Athletics as a skill (Strength + Athletics roll to break down doors for example). Athletics is even listed on page 74 as an example of Active skills. So, for those of us who routinely purchased Athletics in SR3, apparently the analog in SR4 is Gymnastics. Thanks for bringing this to my attention! =) |
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Jun 15 2006, 05:29 AM
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#46
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I don't know how "pure" of an adept you want to make this guy, but if it wouldn't violate the concept that you have of the character, you might want to put some of those extra points into resources, and buy some bioware. From a pure min-maxing standpoint, 1 Essense point of bioware gives you a lot more than one point of magic.
For example, if you got muscle toner: 2, reflex recorder/edged weapons, synthcardium: 3, and platelet factories, then you would have +2 to all agility-based skills, an additional +1 to your edged weapons skill, +3 to all athletics skills (which includes gymnastics, if you take it instead of dodge), and less damage if you are wounded in combat. And all you would lose would be two points of improved ability - and you are getting the equivalent of it (but for more than just one skill) with the agility boost alone. |
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Jun 18 2006, 03:52 PM
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#47
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 10-June 06 Member No.: 8,690 |
No bioware, and can we get back on the topic of my character as opposed to the benefits of gymnastics and dodge?
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Jun 20 2006, 12:30 AM
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#48
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 10-June 06 Member No.: 8,690 |
Dudukain's background:
Born in Atlanta in the CAS in 2044, he worked with Docwagon until 2063, when he disobeyed Docwagon policy by rescuing a dying man from an extraterritorial area, as he put it to his team "screw extraterritoriality, their's somebody dying out their and all you idiots can think of is bloody extraterritoriality!" He was fired from Docwagon for this incident, and became officially wanted by Aztechnology two months later, as the person he saved was a hired shadowrunner in possesion of several secret documents. Luckily for him, his SIN was obliterated in the crash of '64, meaning Aztechnology no longer had a SIN to track him by. With no SIN and wanted by Aztechnology, unable to be employed by any hospital, Dudukain used the skills he had learned rescuing people from gangs and other violent criminals at Docwagon, a knowledge of arcane arts, and skill at first aid, he became a walker in the shadows. |
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Jun 20 2006, 01:41 AM
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#49
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Target Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 4-June 06 Member No.: 8,643 |
Hey, cool. I've got a character with a former DocWagon background as well. I do see quite a few problems trying to reconcile your background with the character sheet though. He was a Docwagon medic, yet the only medical skill I see is a 2 (novice) in First aid, which is a novice rating. I would expect a DocWagon medic to be at least a 3, probably a 4+ in First Aid. You probably don't need the medicine skill (that's not really what field medics do) but maybe a couple of points in knowledge skills directed towards medicine. The biggest thing that stands out to me is that, at the age of 19 he had enough clout to order an entire DocWagon crew to do something they knew was against SOP. If he was a 15 year veteran and senior man on the team, OK, but at 19, I'd expect this guy to be the green wet behind the ears new guy. They would have told him to shut up and sit down when he started the whole 'screw extraterritoriality' spiel.
As for the character sheet itself, while it seems to be legal with the RAW, I find the Incompetent (pilot anthroform) to be MEGA-cheesey. My *rigger* didn't even bother with that skill, and I can't see a non-rigger character ever wanting to take it. If I were GMing, I would insist that you take a skill you at least might want to take in the future, though obviously I'm not and as I said, it does fall within the letter of the law. |
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Jun 20 2006, 03:02 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 |
Perhaps he's been away from DocWagon too long and his skills have atrophied.
If Dudu's like me, though, he was simply thinking more about what he wanted to do in-game versus what skills would justify his background. It's an easy trap to fall into and not even be aware of it. =( |
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