Do RPG players dislike depressing settings?, Taking issue with DMG II Options

[Wounded Ronin]

According to Nisarg/RPGPundit, the D&D DMG II (incidentally, dosen't the idea of a DMG II sound kind of excessive?) says that, "your players will expect to play in a world resembling the Middle Ages, but with the harsh, brutal, depressing and serious elements stripped out."

( http://www.xanga.com/RPGpundit?nextdate=5%...090&direction=n )

This kind of surprised me. I remember in D&D first edition you were technically supposed to roll every month to see if a player character came down with any number of diseases. While in a sense the diseases were kind of superfluous because of the Cure Disease spell it's a credit to 1st edition that if you didn't treat the diseases they'd actually errode your stats over time and possibly kill you just like a real disease would do. If you wanted to play a depressing "realist" medieval scenario without Cure Disease the diseases would actually be a constant threat of death hanging over the PCs heads. My point is that as of 1st edition D&D certainly wasn't about having "the harsh, brutal, depressing and serious elements stripped out."

I mean, even remember Oriental Adventures. That setting had a whole social class system you had to roll on during chargen which would influence whether or not society as a whole would look down on you forever due to your ancestry. That's so awesome it makes me want to flip out and bang a geisha who simultaneously wales on an electric guitar or maybe an electric samisen hooked up to an amplifier.

Likewise, Shadowrun is of course explicitly supposed to be a depressing stew of 1980s fears about Japan, corporations, the environment, and global economics where you're a Midwestern auto worker.

Thing is, though, I know that Wizards does their market research. I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't have written about how people don't want something depressing if they didn't have some kind of consumer research backing that assertion up.

What do you think? Is the fact that most people don't want t3h d3pr3ssing in their RPGs? If so, that's kind of grim news for SR.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Of the 6 players who I've GMd for enough to have an idea of their preferences, 3 would not want to play in realistically fucked up settings. From the popularity of silly superhero RPGs, and the shift in D&D that you mentioned, I expect the majority of RPGers these days don't want to play depressing stuff.

On the other hand, D&D setting books like Midnight are still selling pretty well, right? I've never played World of Darkness games, but that stuff's (sort of) depressing too, and quite popular. Even if wanting to play in a Happy Bubble rules out a lot of potential players, that still leaves a very decent base to market the product to.

[Drraagh]

It's a matter of the player. Just think abotu the WoD for example. Some people play in it as a dark, depressing world (like my group when we played it), whereas others its basically little more than a superhero game. Talking of D&D, think of Ravenloft, if played properly, it's supposed to be dark, depressing, gloomy and all that as well.

Shadowrun, when I play it is full of class divides between the haves and have nots, the rich making their living on the backs of the weak and all that.

This place has some good essays about how to get the sort of cyberpunk theme from Blade Runner, Johnny Mnemonic, Neuromancer and other good Cyberpunk books that tend to hold the whole feel of depressing and all that.

[Nasrudith]

I would say RPG players tend to go towards extremes. They either want a "sterilized" version of valor and glory or they want a horror setting. Shadowrun can satisify both of them with differnt style games. The level the runners start at. If they start street level, where being middle lifestyle makes you extremly rich, gritty is assured. However on the other hand if starting street samurai have betaware, mages are preinitiatied and the Johnson wants you to blow up entire corporate office buildings the game will tend towards action movie style.

[hyzmarca]

Lifestyle doesn't determine grit at all. You can have a rainbows-and-sunshine game where all the PCs are homeless squatters. You can have an emotionally brutal game that causes actual psycological depression in the players with a cast multi-millionare PCs.

In general, players want harsh brutal violent worlds. After all, combat-centered RPGs would be quite pointless in a peaceful world with nothing to fight. The thing is that harsh and brutal violence. What they probably don't want is random things that have nothing to do wiht the plot and which they have no control over.

[Brahm]

Shadowrun is a beam of sunshine up your big brown eye compared to the Warhammer FRPG. Seriously, check it out some time. Every character, at the age of 9, has their doom fortune-told (random roll for every PC). To really put players in the mood it convey's the futility by having character creation use that pinacle of player spirit breaking, random generation. The types of characters that come out of it? Medieval dumpster diver is not even close to the worst that can come out of it. :/

So your PC is then to grub in the filth till some time in the future where they might, maybe, if they don't catch the plague or get disfigured by a rabid squirrel or something, rise up to to the level where they aren't living one step behind the level of [grubby] hand to [cancore sore pocked] mouth.

"Grit"? Like chewing on a big handful of dirt.

And people yet buy this and play it, on purpose, by choice, more than once. So ya, tastes run on a range. Even the same person will play more than one place on the range. Me, I might even play it if I wasn't so burned out on faux medieval fantasy games. But right now I can't really give a fair answer.

Where the bulk of the market is? Well I'm guess that is what WotC is aiming at, and letting the segment of people that want that sort of filth wallowing spend 30$ on their Depression & Diphtheria source book. :love:

[eidolon]

You have to remember that the WoTC model of player is "12 year old with a parent's credit card". Of course they don't want to know about or play the "depressing stuff".

OD&D was marketed at the adult wargamer population. D&D 3.5 is marketed at Squirmy McGee the kid with ADD.

[Nidhogg]

Stormbringer was even worse than Warhammer. While in Warhammer, you may start off being a rat catcher, it will eventualy leads to something worthwhile. Stormbringer on the other hand gives you about the same chance of being a Melnibonian warrior-mage as a retarded leper.

[eidolon]

Leper

;)

[Nidhogg]

[mmu1]

[Wounded Ronin]

[mmu1]

I think that, regardless of what kind of setting they're interested in, players want to be able to mostly deal with major issues. (whatever that means in the context of the campaign)

Even if they want to play in an ugly, dirty and uncaring world, it's usually so they can anguish IC over their soul slowly being torn to shreds - not over the fact their toilet is stopped up and their asshole landlord won't deal with it. Certain things provided interesting challenges to overcome, while others are only good for a bit of flavor, if that.

[eidolon]

Oh, so you mean most of them only come across as being 12 year olds with ADD?

It must be a regional thing.

[Brahm]

[eidolon]

nm, not worth responding to

[Nidhogg]

[Brahm]

[Glyph]

See, the thing is, RPG players like depressing settings, in a decaying cityscape, violent distopia kind of way. But they don't want to be the smelly BTL addict, or the Desert Wars amputee beggar - they want to be the guys with cool auto-fire guns, stylish black long coats, samurai swords, oily mullets, and mirroshades, who kick butt John Woo style.

And why not? 8)

[Crusher Bob]

A better way to put it is that most people want sanitary grit. They don't mind all the homeless, but don't want to have to step over thier vomit or see them roasting a puppy in the mouth of an alley somewhere.

[Witness]

Well it does depend on the players, obviously, but I think you can get away with seriously depressing and shitty stuff as long as there are some rays of sunshine.
Even if it's nothing more than that gorgeous sportscar or beautiful home that they dream of owning, or that loving family that they're trying to look after. If there's hope on the horizon then wading through crap is more bearable, and anyway if there are bright lights then the shadows look darker.

[Kagetenshi]

For what it's worth, I've recently started a personal crusade to increase the misery index of my gameworld.

~J

[nezumi]

[mmu1]

[Lindt]

DMG 2? Humf... WotC is grubbing for money again?

Anywho, as someone who cut his teeth on D&D, well actually it was Planescape, so its 'almost' D&D, its normal to be fullyaware that any mistake I make can have consequenses worse then death.

As someone whos now running a game for a younger (post HS -pre college) crowd, who also learned from D&D, its SO hard to get them to relize that SR just isnt a happy setting. I had one of them go and pick up a joygirl, cheep. And he wondered why I told him he got the clap, and crabs. While I dont have puppies roasting in allyways, I tend to explaine that life is cheep.

Guess its about time for their johnson to screw them eh?

K, I really need to get out there, I miss true grit.