 Do RPG players dislike depressing settings?, Taking issue with DMG II |
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 Jun 19 2006, 03:52 PM
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#101
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 8-November 05 From: Toronto, Ontario - Canada Member No.: 7,934  |
You left out the best plot hook: sometimes you have vivid flashbacks. |
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Jun 19 2006, 04:34 PM
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#102
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
LSD flashbacks are a myth created and perpetuated by the anti-drug lobby.
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Jun 19 2006, 04:37 PM
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#103
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Then how do you explain the people that have them?
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Jun 19 2006, 05:05 PM
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#104
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The people that claim to have them. I would suspect that most of these cases are psychosomatic rather than chemical and the ones that are chemical are perpetuated by something other than LSD. LSD readily metabolizes in the liver and is removed from the body through urine. Traces do not remain in the body as is postulated by common LSD myths. However, studies do suggest that it is a nonspecific trigger for certain pre-existing conditions. |
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Jun 19 2006, 05:53 PM
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#105
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
So you're saying that the symptoms that I never had prior to experimenting with LSD, but now have are not real? I'm just "claiming to have them?"
While they aren't caused by LSD stored in my spinal column as many people think, I find it difficult to believe that the psychology behind them isn't due to the original influences of the drug, and that had I never experimented I probably would never have experienced the symptoms. I'd be interested in seeing a study which disproves LSD's ties to psychological occurrences later in life. By the way, they can't be psychosomatic, because they aren't of the body, they're of the mind. They can be hallucinatory, or real but unrelated to LSD. |
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Jun 19 2006, 06:48 PM
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#106
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, if we can learn anything from V from Vendetta, it is that repeated use of LSD will give you superpowers such as enhanced strength, reflexes, and intelligence. the government doesn't want people to use LSD because they fear their corrupt regime will be toppled by an army of supermen!
McMurray, your description doesn't seem at odds, to me, from what hyzmarca said. had you not experimented with LSD, according to hyzmarca's post, you may very well have never experienced those symptoms--because you would have never run into anything that might trigger them. |
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Jun 19 2006, 06:50 PM
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#107
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I don't remember the presence of LSD in the movie. What did I miss or what have I forgotten?
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Jun 19 2006, 06:52 PM
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#108
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
heh, it was only in the comic. jesus, you must be insane--showing heroes blowing up buildings in order to bring about a violent regime change is all fine and good, but showing them doing drugs? who will think of the children!
/scathing mockery of hollywood |
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Jun 19 2006, 06:53 PM
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#109
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Was it integral to the story? If not it might have been left out to make more time for all the preaching that went on in the flick.
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Jun 19 2006, 06:58 PM
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#110
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
mneh, eh. remember the scene where Inspector Finch sees the whole story laid out in front of him? a similar scene occured in the comic, but it was a series of LSD hallucinations brought on by Finch's experimental use. Finch had found out that V had been repeatedly treated with LSD during the experiments, and hoped to get into V's head by trying some himself.
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Jun 19 2006, 07:05 PM
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#111
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Ah, then not really integral, and probably more likely to cause confusion in a typical theater audience. To make it work they'd have to go into more detail about V's mysterious treatments and more detail about Finch.
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Jun 19 2006, 07:24 PM
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#112
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
What? Just because I'm world famouse mythologist I can't get down and shoot a few Trolls now and then? :D |
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Jun 19 2006, 07:45 PM
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#113
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
NONONONONONONONO!!!!! There is one instance of LSD use in V for Vendetta which is when Inspector Finch, unable to get into the head of V takes it in the closed down Larkhall concentration camp. There's a line near the beginning where Finch says something very similar to "the person we're dealing with here isn't normal - either physically or mentally. And it's the mentally part that bothers me because if I'm going to crack this - and I will - I'm going to have to get inside his head and learn how he thinks." Finch takes the LSD to try and get past some mental block and it works - things fall into place and he sees his life clearly for the first time. It's not stated anywhere in the book that V took LSD. We know that he was used as subject in drugs trials and that it may have affected him mentally, but there's nothing that confirms it was LSD and, indeed, why would the government be experimenting with boring old LSD anyway? V's power comes from being entirely free and unconditioned psychologically. He is a sketch of what someone could be if they had real mental focus, drive and a lack of fear. The comic is actually more realistic than the film as there's nothing in there that someone couldn't do with disciplined training. Heck - most of us could jump onto a slow moving train's roof if we were just insane enough to do it. The point about V is that he has no brakes. He actually decides to bring down a government. Most of us would be physically capable of doing most of the things he does in the book. We're just not capable of acting that way mentally. V reached that point through incarceration and abuse. Evey is pushed to it through torture. Finch approximates it through drug use. But it is largely realistic and that's one of the things that I liked about the book. I particularly like that near the end, and additional explanation of how he is able to do some of the things he does is provided, making everything even more plausible. [ Spoiler ] I enjoyed the film, but I think it weakened the character a little. And the tacked on romance between Evey and V added nothing at all. |
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Jun 19 2006, 08:15 PM
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#114
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
You mean aside from those ten years in the fifties? Nothing comes to mind :P |
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Jun 19 2006, 08:28 PM
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#115
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Well that's my point - the tech is fifty years old. Besides the government wants people it can control, not free thinkers. Prozacs where it's at. :P |
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Jun 19 2006, 09:23 PM
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#116
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Amusement factor maybe? That always works for me. |
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Jun 19 2006, 10:07 PM
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#117
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
he was given the same hormone treatment as everyone else at the camp--a treatment which caused horrible, deadly mutations in all but one of those so treated. it did something to V as well, that i can't accept as being purely psychological. just because someone is batshit insane doesn't make them able to punch holes in peoples' chests. he wasn't treated with LSD, though. i must've misread Finch's thought bubbles, there. it's still funny, to me, that they left in the building-blowing-up but took out the drug use. as for the romance... the word 'love' was thrown around quite a bit in the last couple issues. |
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Jun 19 2006, 10:33 PM
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#118
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Oh there's talk of love. And of course there's the story of Valerie. I applaud the director of the film version for having the balls to leave that in. But between Evey and V there's nothing physical. I always liked the scene where they're dancing together and Evey makes this totally hamfisted attempt to find out why V isn't interested in her. As to the fingers through the chest, that's as super-powered as it gets. We don't even get to see the wound in much detail. As far as V's super-human abiliities go, we've got Finch's "I've a nasty feeling he did this with his fingers" and the end where V manages to stay standing after having been shot three (four?) times. Not for very long, mind you. So it pushes the envelope a little bit, but not so much and never in a way that the story depends on. I think Alan Moore regretted some of the earlier, more super-heroey stuff as the comic progressed. The start is still a bit forced compared to the rest of the series. But the character of V I think is great. It's similar to Neal Stephenson's bit in Snow Crash about how if we could only dedicate our lives to it, if only our parents were killed by mobsters and we became obsessed with vengeance, then we could be a bad motherfucker. V is the one who has found the way to do that, to remove all the brakes from his mind. That's far more important than any mere physical attributes he has. EDIT: Absolutely agree, btw. It's hillarious that they leave in several murders, a massive bombing campaign but the drug use has to be cut. |
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Jun 19 2006, 11:17 PM
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#119
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I don't think he LSD was removed because of any squeemishness about drugs, but more likely because it isn't necessary and would just confuse things.
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Jun 19 2006, 11:33 PM
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#120
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
It also determines what spells your deity will or will not grant you for clerics, it also determines how your character is most likely to act in a given situation. Alignment does not have to be followed exactly, its merely a guideline, I'd say its almost expected you walk outside it sometimes. Lawful Good person disagrees with a law he thinks is doing more harm than good he's more likely to go and try to get it repealed/changed/whatever. However, it is entirely possible they will break this law if it interferes with the good aspect of their alignment. Does this make them neutral or chaotic now? No. They broke a law once out of how many times would they normally have obeyed it? As for Paladins getting screwed by it... read the Book of Exalted Deeds for some messed up stuff you can do to make people fall from grace. Back to depressing settings. They can be fun, if as someone said before the PCs are allowed to shine in their own way without neccessarily compromising. Look at Fallout as an example. Being good didn't always compromise your goal. Sometimes being evil and taking the better (but more dubious) offer would get you more. But it didn't always. |
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Jun 19 2006, 11:46 PM
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#121
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I just noticed this, was it an edit? In any case, that's definitely true, but doesn't mean I'm not having LSD induced states of mind. They aren't caused by actual LSD, but the LSD is the root cause, hence they qualify as flashbacks in my mind. It's probable that we're both just using different meanings for the word flashback. -- How did I miss the D&D references? I gotta jump in on those discussions, whether I actually care about the topic or not. :) Unfortunately I'm reduced to just saying "what X-calibur said." It's only a straightjacket if your gaming group decides not to use it as written. |
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Jun 20 2006, 12:49 AM
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#122
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah, it was an edit. it sounds like you and hyzmarca basically agree on this, as his main point was that post-LSD flashbacks aren't caused by physical remnants of the drug in the user's system. whether the post-use flashbacks are caused by pre-existing conditions that are triggered by LSD use, or whether LSD use creates those conditions is another question.
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Jun 20 2006, 01:27 AM
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#123
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I was also being a little nitpicky about technical definitions. Some studies define LSD flashbacks in such a broad way that many people who have no mental disorders and have never taken any hallucinogens could qualify.
Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder is a very specific and very rare diagnosis. It is what most people think of when they think of 'flashbacks' but the popular perception of LSD flashbacks doesn't really match HPPD. I certainly won't argue that HPPD isn't a real condition. It most certainly is. I will argue that one diagnostic criterion is flawed. By definition, one must have taken a hallucinogen to have HPPD but there isn't really enough research to support the assertion that hallucinogen use is a prerequisite for HPPD symptoms. The condition is simply that rare. Likewise, the fact that HPPD has been tied to a wide variety of hallucinogenic substances (not just LSD) suggests that the the hallucinogen use simply triggers altered perceptions in people susceptible to them. The wide variety of different responses to hallucinogens supports this hypothesis, as well. |
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Jun 21 2006, 02:48 AM
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#124
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
You know, another problem with the "selling out" thing occurred to me. It shouldn't always work out that simply! Taking the easy road might get you ahead... but it might also get you betrayed, swerved, or tied down to some corporation or criminal organization.
For example, one sammie turns down a sick job (shooting a kid in front of his dad, for a mafia boss). The other sammie's will crumbles, though, when the don offers to give the street-level sammie some level: 2 wired reflexes at the mafia's own clinic for doing the job. Afterwards, though, he wakes up with boosted reflexes: 1 ("What, you thought we'd waste the good stuff on street trash like you?") and a cortex bomb ("Just remember who owns you now"). Extreme example, but if you betray friends, do things that even other 'runners frown upon, and deal with the nastier end of Seattle's shadows, it should come back and bite you sometimes. |
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Jun 21 2006, 02:51 AM
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#125
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
IF he's going to own you via cortex bomb, it's not a waste to put in wired 2. Better tools are by definition, well, better. :)
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