 Do RPG players dislike depressing settings?, Taking issue with DMG II |
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 Jun 13 2006, 04:10 PM
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#26
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253  |
Soul crushing grit is not having the Johnson stab you in the back so that you can get another bullet time gunfight where your ytrench coat flaps in the wind and every gleam on your mirrorshades is perfectly caught by the camera. It's getting by your Johnson, not getting paid, and having to eat dog food for three weeks until the next job comes along. Grit is having to spend some time hiding out in the barrens and hacing the GM describe the sanitary arrangements (I hope you had your own supply of toilet paper, and your shoes are pretty... icky now.) Grit is some small, petty, horrible detail of how the world works that you really wish you didn't know.
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Jun 13 2006, 04:12 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Nah, that kind of thinking is for the birds. ;) |
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Jun 13 2006, 04:27 PM
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#28
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...kind of like a Frank Miller work. |
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Jun 13 2006, 04:47 PM
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#29
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
There's grit and then there's absurdity. The line between the two is far thinner than most would believe. Take, for example, Cowboy Bebop. The bounty hunters are in an almost constant state of starvation with nothing to eat but peppers and occasionally mushrooms. Yet it is funny. Consider the ED-209 demonstration scene from Robocop. A man is brutally killed in a horrific acident. Yet it is funny.
Grit can't be extreme because extreme grit is actually absurdist dark humor in disguise. |
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Jun 13 2006, 05:27 PM
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#30
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
You mean like Tom Wait's Frank's Wild Years? 8)
Never could stand that dog. |
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Jun 13 2006, 06:05 PM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,328 Joined: 9-September 04 From: Alabama Member No.: 6,645 |
I know a number of people who like Ravenloft....sheesh...it doesn't get any more depressing than that.
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Jun 13 2006, 06:56 PM
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#32
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
the theme one should aim for is the old film noir movies. the lonely person thats over his head, knows he cant fight his way out of the problems, and keeps being draged in the moment he things he have gotten out. only that rpgs are about groups so...
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Jun 13 2006, 07:33 PM
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#33
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
I actually just bought Van Richten's Guide to Were(whatevers..beasts? it's in the other room and I'm lazy). It's the first Ravenloft book I've ever read (outside one of the adventures back in the late 90's), and I'm actually kind of liking it.
We just never did Ravenloft, so I never really developed a taste for it. So far, just from the style of writing, it makes me think of V:tM mixed with Call of Cthulu mashed into D&D with a big hammer. At any rate, it's enough to make me want to read the main Ravenloft book(s). |
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Jun 13 2006, 08:55 PM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i understand what you're saying, but i think that bullet-time gunfights (with or without trenchcoats) can have their place in a gritty game. it's all about what happens after the gunfight, y'know? if you go from the gunfight to your ritzy safehouse to screw the hot chick you just saved, no--not gritty. but if you, say, go from the gunfight to your crappy safehouse, where you eat dogfood for the next three weeks... the dichotomy of an incredibly skilled professional who lives in the slums and eats dogfood is, to me, pretty gritty. it means that no matter what, no matter how good you are, you'll never escape the street. |
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Jun 13 2006, 09:11 PM
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#35
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
*ahem* Eating dogfood while nursing horrible gunshot wounds in a leaky, roach-infested apartment with the sounds of ... Well, you get the idea. |
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Jun 13 2006, 09:20 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 199 Joined: 16-September 03 From: Massachusetts Member No.: 5,625 |
I agree with an above poster who said that most people don't mind "depressing" as long as it doesn't happen to their character. A terrible dystopian future where everything sucks? Sure, as long as I have lots of cyberware and the biggest gun on the block!
I don't think you'll find a whole lot of players who want the depressing stuff to happen to them - drug addiction, poverty, abusive families, a hopeless job, etc. Now a -GM- might occasionally want that, but not many -players-. Even SR has that "you're a -hero-" vibe to it, at least in 3rd edition (it's too early to tell for 4th, but I'm betting on the same trend). The whole bit about "Karma" and taking jobs that will help other people, etc. Even the wetwork assignments aren't amoral (who has ever had a mission that goes "here's 100K, go kill the baby in my apartment complex because it won't shut up!"?) - they're against targets who generally "deserve" it. |
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Jun 13 2006, 09:46 PM
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#37
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
criminals with a honor code...
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Jun 13 2006, 10:08 PM
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#38
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah. i remember being vaguely confused by the "karma and the amoral campaign" section in SRComp. like, "waitaminute--you only get karma if you're a good guy!?"
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Jun 13 2006, 11:19 PM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
That confused me as well. I had no idea you were supposed to play the good guy until I read that. I suppose that burning cash for karma makes more sense, anyway. It would represent practice time rented on the range, gym memberships, healthy diet to raise physical attributes, medical checkups, and so on. |
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Jun 13 2006, 11:22 PM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i treat it as an option. you can earn karma the normal way, and if you want, you can buy it (with GM approval, for specific purposes delineated upon proposal, in limited quantities).
of course, different writers at different times have had some pretty fucked up ideas about in-game morality. like that one scene in Sprawl Sites, where the only way you could earn any karma for the encounter is to shave an NPC's hair off. actually killing anyone would net the characters 0 karma. |
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Jun 13 2006, 11:29 PM
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#41
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Using anything from SR1 as a benchmark for handing out karma is probably ill-advised.
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Jun 13 2006, 11:32 PM
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#42
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Grit is one of those words. Right up there with street. There is another idea of grit, and that is lower powerscale of what the character. They can still be in a relatively nice place but no they don't bullet time around. They are just able to shoot, and they don't pull off amazing feats of driving, or safely backflips off a 3 story building, or catch knives in their teeth.
But they can still go home at night, which that are able to regularly make the rent on, and eat something other than past-due-date dog food washed down with Lysol spiked puddle water. |
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Jun 13 2006, 11:37 PM
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#43
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Grit is what makes my privates chafe when I go to the beach and roll in the sand.
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Jun 14 2006, 12:35 AM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 197 Joined: 15-June 05 From: Portland, Or. Member No.: 7,447 |
i personaly wish to see the grittiness of life in the game more often. that doesn't mean the character(s) start to lose family members and friends left and right from this and that. i mean more along the lines of the stuff that you would see happen in a guardians of the flame book.
like when most groups play no one ever wonders how the people who offered to put you up for the night get water-ei going to the well something like 3x's a day. and no one takes into effect that fact that for the most part people didn't take baths everyday, if everyweek. they worn a lot a perfume to cover this fact up too... |
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Jun 14 2006, 12:43 AM
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#45
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Please tell me that this was for a barber campaign in which the PCs are all trained professional barbers. And Thou, son of man, take thee a barber's razor and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thine beard. |
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Jun 14 2006, 06:42 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
To me, bad stuff happening to oneself is what makes the game interesting. In fact, I'm considering making my next character a formerly promising and uber-l33t mage who fell and fell hard when she lost her meat arm in an accident and got it replaced with a cyber-arm. Naturally, she got really upset about being "crippled for life," developed a drinking problem, lost her lucrative job as a corporate wage-mage, and ended up living on the streets. She'll be fun to play with! ^_^ |
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Jun 14 2006, 07:32 AM
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#47
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
'Fraid not. It's a gang encounter (p.55). |
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Jun 14 2006, 08:35 AM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Yeah I've thought it might be fun to play a seriously burned out mage sometime, but it'd probably only be fun for a short campaign, and/or if the rest of the group was as messed up... An absurdly SURGEd street sam, a laughably bad elf-poser face with a BTL addiction, a mechanic with gremlins, that sort of thing. I think we need a thread for messed-up character ideas. I think I shall start one. This post has been edited by Witness: Jun 14 2006, 08:43 AM |
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Jun 14 2006, 02:00 PM
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#49
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
That is sort of the problem. Unless your gritty issues are in a particular area or only skin-deep, you'll likely be the only leper beggar in a group of uber-l33t runners, which means the game will suck for you.
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Jun 14 2006, 05:36 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
Pay attention, because I'm about to reveal the key to a brilliant Shadowrun campaign.
Cyberpunk is about losing your soul to get ahead. The Shadowrun setting is full of examples of this, from cyberware and its essence cost, to the world of megacorps. Likewise, anything your players consider a gain needs to come at a price. If they cheat this rule, karma comes to kick them in the ass later. Early in your campaign, let each character visibly see their definition of success. Then, over the course of the campaign, make each one compromise everything to get it. That should leave everyone with a nice hollow feeling at the end. That kind of suffering is what people crave in a cyberpunk setting. |
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