Do RPG players dislike depressing settings?

Do RPG players dislike depressing settings?, Taking issue with DMG II

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Jun 17 2006, 03:06 AM Post #76
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	A much better solution, as the kobold todders are too low CR to give you any XP, haul them back to the village and let the villagers kill them. Since the villagers are only lvl 1, they can still derive xp from killing such low CR monsters.

SL James View Member Profile	Jun 17 2006, 09:33 AM Post #77
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	Yeah, but then you have to kill the villagers. Hm... On second thought.

knasser

Jun 17 2006, 10:35 AM

Post #78

Shadow Cartographer

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QUOTE (2bit @ Jun 16 2006, 03:03 PM)

Is anyone interested in discussing how to bring some of the sacrifice back into magic? I feel that under normal circumstances it's better to offer the player a "favorable tradeoff" than a gift.

Bearing in mind that I disagree very much with enforcing sacrifices on the players the obvious tack to take would be how increasing enlightenment and power separates the magician from his fellow man.

As one attempts to seek greater spiritual knowledge it is all too easy for someone to care less and less about the "mundane" world around them. Examples would be losing interest in friends, lovers as nothing compares to the spiritual masturbation that is advanced meditation and initiation. This is a real trap that people can fall into.

As ones world becomes increasingly filled with mysticism, symbolism and Great Truths™, it is quite possible to see the "mundane" world as having less significance. Who cares if Tony Blair and Bush are figureheading a return to totalitarianism - it's part of the great rolling wheel of karma and the physical world is mere gross matter anyhow. People may be miserable, but its their own inability or willingness to escape the illusion of matter and there's nothing you need do for them.

As one places one's value increasingly on the invisible, one's dedication to social norms becomes increasinly weaker. When your astral form is a beacon for all to see, what do your clothes, or your worldly goods or hygiene matter? The archetype we're familiar with is the madman, the hermit or the beggar with the gift of prophecy. Picture your hermetic mage, out of his head on Qabballah, finally having reached grade 10th initiate, lying in a gutter in a state of bliss. He has so dedicated himself to the pursuit of magic that all other considerations are long forgotten. Having finally purged himself of concern for comfort, security, social respect, he is magic. With a thought he can conjure riches or make people love him. In achieving total mastery, there is nothing he needs or desires any longer. Changing his name to Oroborus, he projects from his body and disappears up his own astral sphincter never to be heard of again.

Because the price of spiritual advancement is so personal, it requires pretty intense role-playing to capture it. You could hint at it in game by having loved ones grow increasingly distant, play up the length of time that it takes to initiate, or the flatness of the world after the metaplanes. After all, karma represents something vital and if you're meditating or questing all the time, you're not not investing it in those you care about.

But if you inflict this on your players (and why aren't you playing Mage or Vampire, anyway), then you must complete the circle and bring them back at the end. The purpose of the magician's quest is not to remain with the godhead for ever more, but to return to the world and bring back a little of the light she has found. Jesus returns from the wilderness, Zarathustra comes down from the mountain and Mohammed finishes talking with the archangel and is kind enough to pass on the Cliff's Notes for the rest of us. Divinity is the final trap of the spiritual quest and every body should have a chance to overcome that and realise the significance of the mundane world around us.

As some Zen bloke once said:
"Before enlightement - fetching logs, carrying water. After enlightenment - fetching logs, carrying water."

Brahm

Jun 17 2006, 02:01 PM

Post #79

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (2bit)

That's a good point about the magic system. When I read through SR4 initiation I was disappointed to not see any mention of groups, their (IIRC) spirit patrons, or trials.

No way they could have crammed groups and all tho good stuff into the core book in any sort of meaningful way. IMO it was more than good enough that they got Initiation itself moved into the core book. Wait a month for your Street Magic PDF, and if it isn't in there then sign me up for the innevitable Burn A Writer crusade. :)

Brahm

Jun 17 2006, 02:02 PM

Post #80

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685)

*whistle* Alignment infraction! Ten-Thousand XP penalty!

No! Because all Kobolds are Evil! Says so right in the book. ;)

hyzmarca

Jun 17 2006, 04:54 PM

Post #81

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QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 16 2006, 10:01 PM)

*whistle* Alignment infraction! Ten-Thousand XP penalty!

No! Because all Kobolds are Evil! Says so right in the book. ;)

Assuming that killing evil beings is a good thing, Paladins are still bound to fight honorably so they can't kill defenseless toddlers. If there were one in theparty he'd be struck down by his god instantly and ressurrected as a Death Knight by some evil deity. They do have Death Knights in 3.5?

But why you are killing evil creatures in the first place? Haven't you played Planescape: Torment? Don't you known that evil beings become petitioners in Balor once they die and are forced to serve as footsoldiers in the endless Blood War? Do you really want to add fuel to that? That's just evil. You should be killing Good beings so they can be eternally happy on one of the Upper Planes. That is the good, just, and morally right thing to do. Killing evil beings should cause an alignment penality.

QUOTE (2bit)

Is anyone interested in discussing how to bring some of the sacrifice back into magic? I feel that under normal circumstances it's better to offer the player a "favorable tradeoff" than a gift.

Bringing Sacrifce back into magic is easy but it requires a houserule. By canon PCs aren't allowed to take that metamagic or the matching geas.

Kanada Ten

Jun 17 2006, 05:12 PM

Post #82

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Sanitized: The PCs slaughter a cave full of pitufully weak kobolds and are praised as heroes when they return to the villiage.

Gritty: The PCs slaughter of cave full of pittifully weak kobolds and are confronted by dozens of helpless kobold toddlers cowering in fear and weeping over their parent's corpses.

How It Really Happened: Characters kill kobold leaders and warriors, chain up the toddlers and other leftovers, return to the village as heros, and sell kobold slaves to farmers across the ocean. They then seek out other kobold "infestations" and build a slave trading empire, but are assassinated by the king, who then takes control of the trade through the South Greyhawk Tea Company.

Brahm

Jun 17 2006, 06:18 PM

Post #83

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 17 2006, 11:54 AM)

QUOTE (Brahm @ Jun 17 2006, 09:02 AM)

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jun 16 2006, 10:01 PM)

*whistle* Alignment infraction! Ten-Thousand XP penalty!

No! Because all Kobolds are Evil! Says so right in the book. ;)

Assuming that killing evil beings is a good thing, Paladins are still bound to fight honorably so they can't kill defenseless toddlers. If there were one in theparty he'd be struck down by his god instantly and ressurrected as a Death Knight by some evil deity. They do have Death Knights in 3.5?

It isn't so much a fight as taking out the trash. 8)

What, they aren't able to swat unarmed mosquitoes either? :please: It's stupid rulings like that, in combination with the idiocy of Alignment, that gives the Paladin class such a bad name. :P

Kagetenshi

Jun 17 2006, 07:41 PM

Post #84

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QUOTE (2bit)

Is anyone interested in discussing how to bring some of the sacrifice back into magic? I feel that under normal circumstances it's better to offer the player a "favorable tradeoff" than a gift.

Magic is, ultimately and inextricably, the essence of the Horrors. Anything done with it, anything at all, feeds and strengthens the Horrors and allows the tendrils of hate and fear and rage further into the mage. Immortal Elves can stand to Initiate repeatedly because of the amount of time they can spread their journey out over, but a double-digit Human initiate is on the short path to being a spree killer.

~J, totally not canon.

eidolon View Member Profile	Jun 17 2006, 08:14 PM Post #85
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333	Meh, alignment is stupid when run by the clueless.

John Campbell View Member Profile	Jun 17 2006, 10:24 PM Post #86
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581	s/ when run by the clueless//

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Jun 18 2006, 08:51 PM Post #87
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Alignment is stupid period. The cannot take into account the subtle complexities of human motivation. The D&D alignment system is even worse because of its inconsistency. The Lawful/Chaotic paradigm suffers from the fact that laws are different depending on your jurisdiction and it is possible to obey one while violating another. Say, for example, a King orders a Knight to act as a spy in an enemy kingdom. Espionage is unlawful but so is disobeying th king. The Good/Evil dichotomy suffers from other problems. In some ways, they are treated as personal moral choices. The good person will be helful and kind. The evil person will be selfish and cruel. However, they are also treated as tangible forces and broad philosophical concepts. A Paladin should be able to use the Hand of Vecna to champoin the cause of Justice but he cannot because his isn't 'Evil' as if evil were a tangible thing. However, on the broader scope it is quite possible that the 'Evil' philosophy is the correct philosophy. We see this in Placescape: Torment. [ Spoiler ] In Planescape:Torment there is an Iron Golem that serves Entropy. He wishes to ensure that the multiverse will one day die. He fears that the multiverse will overcome Entropy and stagnate for eternity. However, he is trapped. Freeing him is an evil thing according to the game. It is, in fact, the most evil thing you can do. However, the major philosophical theme of the game and, in fact, the entire point of it is that immortality is a curse and people should accept their ultimate destiny. In order to win the game you have to make the Nameles One mortal again or have him killed. In light of such a fact it would seem that the evil choice is the morally correct one. So, we are left with a contradictory situation where 'Evil' can be more good than 'Good.' But back to my original point. The difference between a gritty and a sanitary game isn't that your PCs can't get the clap from a whore in the sanatary game. The difference is that the enemies in the sanitary game are caracitures. They are the bad guy just because they are and they have no redeeming qualities. In the gritty game they are real people with hopes and dreams and families. In the gritty game you hurt innocent people when you kill your enemies. You hurt innocent people just by putting them in prision. In the sanitary games there is an army of good and an army of evil. In gritty games there are two morally ambiguous armies that fueled by nationalism and patriotism. The sanitary games the good guys always win when if the PCs die they will be replaced. In gritty games there are no good guys and victory has the same moral consequences as failure; the only difference is who the bad things happen to.

eidolon View Member Profile	Jun 18 2006, 10:11 PM Post #88
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333	I love reading the repetitious and wholly unoriginal arguments against the alignment system. If you don't like it, don't use it. I'll say this, because it's the simplest answer to your "philosophical quandaries". Good and evil are real and tangible things, to use words that you've misapplied. Good and evil are not relativistic in D&D. If you choose to play it as such, it will start to break down, just as will any real world argument in which the question of good vs. evil is raised. However, the good, evil, law and chaos of the D&D world are not the good, evil, law and chaos of our own. Reading your knee-jerk rant-post, it's painfully obvious that you have little understanding of the D&D alignment system, its history in the game, its application, and its use (thinking that the overarching axis of Law literally means "follow the laws all the time because it's the law", for example). Feel free not to use it, but just some friendly advice, you make yourself look like a jackass when you try to make "reasoned" statements based on half-baked knowledge. [/my posts on a topic that belongs on the WotC boards]

Wounded Ronin

Jun 18 2006, 10:16 PM

Post #89

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (knasser)

But if you inflict this on your players (and why aren't you playing Mage or Vampire, anyway), then you must complete the circle and bring them back at the end. The purpose of the magician's quest is not to remain with the godhead for ever more, but to return to the world and bring back a little of the light she has found. Jesus returns from the wilderness, Zarathustra comes down from the mountain and Mohammed finishes talking with the archangel and is kind enough to pass on the Cliff's Notes for the rest of us. Divinity is the final trap of the spiritual quest and every body should have a chance to overcome that and realise the significance of the mundane world around us.

Thank you, Joseph Campbell. :D

Wounded Ronin

Jun 18 2006, 10:22 PM

Post #90

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QUOTE (Crusher Bob)

A much better solution, as the kobold todders are too low CR to give you any XP, haul them back to the village and let the villagers kill them. Since the villagers are only lvl 1, they can still derive xp from killing such low CR monsters.

The best part about that is that killing kobold toddlers will actually help the farmers level up and become better farmers.

Farmer Joe: Man, my apple trees just aren't doing well even though I fertilize them and everything. What's the matter, Farmer Mack? Yours always look great.

Farmer Mack: Well, see, I'm a level 3 farmer whereas you're only a level 1 farmer.

Farmer Joe: How do I become a level 3 farmer?

Farmer Mack: Kill about 30 kobold toddlers.

Farmer Joe: What?

Farmer Mack: Seriously. I killed a bunch and all my crops started doing better. I also have three times as many hit points as you now also.

mfb View Member Profile	Jun 18 2006, 10:27 PM Post #91
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	i have to agree with eidolon. the D&D system works just fine, if you use it as intended rather than using it as a straightjacket. the knight who is ordered to spy on an enemy kingdom will obey the rule of his king, and respect the law of the nation he's spying on as much as possible. being lawful doesn't mean you have to obey every random law you run into--it means that you believe that things generally work better if you color inside the lines. as for the PS:T situation, that's not good versus evil, that's good versus law: [ Spoiler ] allowing things to achieve their natural state, or preventing them from doing so, is not a good/evil question, it's a law/chaos question. do you allow natural law to rule, or do you buck the law in order to achieve your ends? the good/evil part only comes into play when you consider the effects of the law/chaos decisions--namely, that acting lawfully will inflict terrible evil on the multiverse.

Rock

Jun 18 2006, 10:28 PM

Post #92

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QUOTE (nezumi)

The point is either they compromise their lesser values (family, self-respect, body, etc.) or they compromise their driving goal (enough money to get out of this hell-hole, a cure for his terminal disease, saving his wife).

If he chooses not to compromise his lesser goals, he doesn't achieve his greater goal. If his greater goal is something stupid, that's okay, the PC will just be left floating without ever achieving anything of note. If his greater goal is something good or cool, then he just wussed out and basic lost.

As a player, I don't want to spend a year or two in a campaign that is an exercise in nihilistic futility (unless I know ahead of time that is what it is going to be). I play for escapist fantasy. Shadowrun, BattleTech, Star Wars RPG, Top Secret S.I. are all diversions to me that allow me to do something I simply can't in real life. HArd moral choices that ultimately are no win scenarios? I can see that everyday in real life.

Do I take the job in the new city and lose my girlfriend or stay in the dead end job I have now, but please her?
Do I give my life savings to my brother who is in trouble, knowing all the while he'll never pay it back?
Do I tell my best friend that his wife is cheating on him?

A campaign like you describe might be great for some people, but I want to play a game that is fun with a few challenges, not one that is designed right from the beginning for me to never be able to get ahead in.

Wounded Ronin

Jun 18 2006, 10:31 PM

Post #93

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Sanitized: The PCs slaughter a cave full of pitufully weak kobolds and are praised as heroes when they return to the villiage.

Gritty: The PCs slaughter of cave full of pittifully weak kobolds and are confronted by dozens of helpless kobold toddlers cowering in fear and weeping over their parent's corpses.

Full Metal Jacket: The PCs wield M60 machineguns in one hand while feeding the belt with the other and stride through the cave blasting the kobold toddlers apart while saying GET SOME GET SOME GET SOME.

hyzmarca

Jun 18 2006, 11:46 PM

Post #94

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QUOTE (mfb)

i have to agree with eidolon. the D&D system works just fine, if you use it as intended rather than using it as a straightjacket.

But the alignment system is a straightjacket. Asside from roleplaying fluff its primary purpose is to determine which magical items you can and cannot use and which classes you can and cannot be.

Wounded Ronin View Member Profile	Jun 18 2006, 11:56 PM Post #95
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383	Dude, where was that golem in Planescape? I don't think I've ever found him.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Jun 19 2006, 12:06 AM Post #96
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	[ Spoiler ] He's in the Lower Ward's Seige Tower. A guy in the marketplace by the furnace will eventually tell you that in order to get in you must not want to get in. He'll make the Blade of the Immortal for you and he'll give you the Entropic Blade if you free him.

Wounded Ronin

Jun 19 2006, 12:22 AM

Post #97

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

[ Spoiler ]

Thanks. I guess I still haven't managed to do everything in that game; usually I'd just go through the route of winning the game through high WIS since high WIS tended to give you the best dialogue options anyway.

mfb

Jun 19 2006, 01:39 AM

Post #98

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

But the alignment system is a straightjacket. Asside from roleplaying fluff its primary purpose is to determine which magical items you can and cannot use and which classes you can and cannot be.

well, yeah. what's the point of having an alignment system if it's not integrated into the game? that doesn't make it a straightjacket, though, any more than saying that you can't play a hermetic mage who summons nature spirits is a straightjacket. it's simply an aspect of the game.

eidolon View Member Profile	Jun 19 2006, 07:57 AM Post #99
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333	sigh [my posts on a topic that belongs on the WotC boards] (So I'm bored. I'm packing up my house to move. How exciting... Taking judicious breaks, much furthering the irritation of my wife. :embarassed: :D) Back to topic: Nope. Or rather, only if you see it as such and allow that to color your approach to playing the game. Alignment is no more a straightjacket than your character class, your race, or your wizard's daily spell selection. All are part of the game that is D&D. edit>>Ooops. What mfb said. ;)

2bit

Jun 19 2006, 03:14 PM

Post #100

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (2bit @ Jun 16 2006, 03:03 PM)

Is anyone interested in discussing how to bring some of the sacrifice back into magic? I feel that under normal circumstances it's better to offer the player a "favorable tradeoff" than a gift.

Magic is, ultimately and inextricably, the essence of the Horrors. Anything done with it, anything at all, feeds and strengthens the Horrors and allows the tendrils of hate and fear and rage further into the mage. Immortal Elves can stand to Initiate repeatedly because of the amount of time they can spread their journey out over, but a double-digit Human initiate is on the short path to being a spree killer.

~J, totally not canon.

Good ol' chaos! Taking a page from WHFRP, it might be fun to introduce minor insanities on magicians who have peered into the abyssal depths of magic. Perhaps a sojourn to the metaplanes is like an LSD trip; sometimes it's a dream, sometimes it's a nightmare. You could bless a player with spirit affinity and spirit bane for opposing elements. I like the idea that initiation opens the magician to being altered by it.

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