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> Improved Skill adept power
Sammiel
post Jun 13 2006, 02:35 PM
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I see alot of posts here that people are unaware of the nerf this power received in SR4.

This power now adds directly to your skill rating, which is limited by your skill rating max. Ergo, you can no longer have any more than half your skill level in this power.
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Squinky
post Jun 13 2006, 04:04 PM
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I think most folks are aware of that. The skill isn't really nerfed considering that everyone else is constrained by the same cap, and the only other option is to recieve a reflex recorder (only +1 dice).

Basically the cap and new skill system makes improved skills one of the adepts leading points.
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Butterblume
post Jun 13 2006, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (Squinky)
I think most folks are aware of that.

Most folks who visit this forum, at least ;).

Is it even in the english errata yet? It's in the german one, and will be in the next english one (if it isn't already :P).
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Squinky
post Jun 13 2006, 04:25 PM
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Well, it's listed that way in my book, 2nd printing.
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Butterblume
post Jun 13 2006, 04:28 PM
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Didn't knew that. Outstanding ;).
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Teulisch
post Jun 13 2006, 06:38 PM
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the reflex recorder, according to the errata, adds to the skills rating. I can see this as a nice way to get a skill to 7 without needing aptitude. but it does raise questions about increasing skill thats been modified in this way. dunno if the recorder can hit skill 8.

adepts, are capped at 'base rating x1.5', which means skill 6 can get +3 dice for a total of 9. skill 4 can get +2 for a total of 6. so an adept can ALWAYS have more skill than a non-adpet can if thats what they focus in. (skill 10, +2 specialty, +max racial attribute). you could have a human adept with 20+ dice on any given test before modifiers.

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fool
post Jun 13 2006, 10:03 PM
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actually, imo, the power that really is much more unreasonable is attribute boost. Give it to a dwarf orc or troll who use their body plus will power to resist a dv equal to the level of the power, and they can max out any physical stat(s) they want pretty easily and usually long enough to last through a whole combat.
I had a dwarf with this in r and a and he was routinely getting 3 more in each stat for 6 turns. He only had the power at 2 so he'd make the drain everytime.
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mrcatman
post Jun 13 2006, 10:57 PM
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QUOTE (fool @ Jun 13 2006, 05:03 PM)
actually, imo, the power that really is much more unreasonable is attribute boost.  Give it to a dwarf orc or troll who use their body plus will power to resist a dv equal to the level of the power, and they can max out any physical stat(s) they want pretty easily and usually long enough to last through a whole combat.
I had a dwarf with this in r and a and he was routinely getting 3 more in each stat for 6 turns.  He only had the power at 2 so he'd make the drain everytime.

Just cap the hits to a max equal to your rating in the attribute boost adept power - sort of like capping hits on spells equal to force.

He'll never get more than 2 hits (lasting 4 turns) with a rating 2 attribute boost power at that point.

Even with +3 IPs (total of 4 passes per turn), it still takes you the full first turn to boost all 4 physical stats (assuming you have them all). To me, that means you've spent the first turn of the boosts' durations already, leaving it so they only lasts 3 more turns for +2 to all your 4 physical stats. That doesn't seem as bad to me.
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Jaid
post Jun 14 2006, 12:34 AM
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actually, if i'm not mistaken it's a simple action to use the attribute boost power.

so it's actually 2 IPs to boost all 4 physical attributes. either way, the combat could actually even be over, or at the very least mostly over, by that time... it's great for battles you're prepared for, not so great for if you get surprised.
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fool
post Jun 14 2006, 01:21 AM
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yeah it only takes a simple action to activate, and the raw doesn't state that it's limited by the level of the power, just that you roll dice equal to the level of the power + magic. If you were going to limit it the fairest thing to do would be to limit it to magic IMO.
Even in surprise situations, it's good since you get an IP (hence 2 stats you can bump) even if you go dead last in the init order.
Of course it works even better if you're the one trying to surprise someone.
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Squinky
post Jun 14 2006, 01:54 AM
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Thats why you only get one boosted attribute (most common choice would be agility) at rating one. With Magic 6 and one level of boost, you will probably at least get 2 hits by using your first simple action, then you still get to shoot. It seems like it could get out of hand, or need a capping houserule, but then again adepts don't get cheap permanent attribute boosts like Sammys do.
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Triggerz
post Oct 24 2006, 07:05 AM
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Well, yeah... Muscle Toner 3 + Muscle Augmentation 3 will get both Strength and Agility from 6 to 9 at an Essence cost of 1.2 total, or 0.6 if you have more cyberware than bioware. Granted, you cannot increase Essence the way you can increase Magic, but these are permanent increases, as you mentioned. You get the maximum augmented rating 100% of the time and you never need to spend end to make sure you get the full boost or to make sure that the boost will last long enough to enable you to do what you need to do. The Attribute Boost power will never enable the adept to get stronger or more agile than the sammy - only to match him very temporarily. As such, I wouldn't say that the power is a game-breaker.

I wish the drain was more in line with the extra boost an additional level of the power provides, but at the same time, an extra three dice mean one more hit on average (without Edge), which means an extra two combat turns of boost and one more attribute point for the whole duration. Concretely, it will often make the difference between [Magic (5) + Attribute Boost (1) = 2 hits = +2 to the Attribute for 4 Combat Turns] and [Magic (5) + Attribute Boost (4) = 3 hits = +3 to the Attribute for 6 Combat Turns]. Of course, nothing in the rules say that you cannot use the power repeatedly, so if you don't mind reactivating the power more often, option 1 is the way to go if you need the boost to last as long as possible (e.g. you are in a huge fight that lasts several minutes) as you will probably never get drain. However, a higher level of the power will give you the maximum boost much more consistently, and that has value as well. For only .25 Power Point, I think the first level is a hell of a good deal for Agility and Strength, but I don't think it's broken as you'll usually need more than that to max out your attribute without using Edge all the time. And if you're a Level 5 initiate who almost always squeezes a maxed attribute out of his .25 Power Point with no drain whatsoever, well, you're a Level 5 initiate!?!?! If you use the power often, you'll likely buy more levels as your ability to handle the drain improves in order to extend the duration of the boost. Overall, the way the power works is far from perfect, but I think I'll use it as is and see how it actually works during games. I still think that it doesn't compare all that well with Muscle Toner and Muscle Augmentation, but that's just my own opinion.
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lorechaser
post Oct 24 2006, 02:45 PM
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Additionally, Muscle Toner 3 and Muscle Aug 3 (if alpha) will fit in under 1 essence, vs taking improved ability (Str) and (Agi) for 2 point powers.

So you can spend 2 points of magic, or one point of essence.

Muscle Aug 2 and Toner 2 are available in standard, at chargen, and together are less than 1 essence point.

So you can potentially get more success with the adept power, but at a higher cost, with activation. Or you can have constant boosts that may not reach as high.

Trade-off!
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Triggerz
post Oct 24 2006, 04:18 PM
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Now the sweetest thing about Attribute Boost is when you're an elf with Exceptional Attribute (Agility). With that, you get a maximum natural Agility of 8, and a maximum augmented Agility of 12. Then you need a few levels of Attribute Boost and a high Edge and you're ready to roll. Of course, even when spending Edge, getting your agility up from, let's say, 7 to 12 is going to be tough, and you'll likely fall short of the max quite often, but it still is a pretty scary thought. Of course, an elven sammy with Exceptional Attribute (Agility) and Muscle Toner 4 is going to be even scarier as he could *always* have an Agility of 12, but hey! adepts have other tricks up their sleeves.
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blakkie
post Oct 24 2006, 04:29 PM
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QUOTE (Sammiel)
I see alot of posts here that people are unaware of the nerf this power received in SR4.

It isn't a "nerf". They just fixed the the copy-paste from SR3 screw-up so it wasn't as god damn confusing. Now if they'd only make it clear in all the places. :/ Which is going to take at least the FAQ because they'd have a pages of updates to the text to get it straight what is counted towards the cap if they were making the rules text clear.
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Ophis
post Oct 24 2006, 04:30 PM
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I do think the adept attribute increrase are terrible, they really nerf adepts as compared to street sam, for my high level game both adepts who appear have both used a point of essence or two to boost stats and get some of the structural toughness stuff to make themselves more duarble. It seems the way to go for pragmatic adepts who aren't prissy about their essence. I'm tempted to run Increased attribute as .5 per point which is more in line with cyber.
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blakkie
post Oct 24 2006, 04:36 PM
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The Adept powers aren't that far out of line with cyberware, but for Str, Agi and IP/Rea bioware is definately the way to go.
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Ophis
post Oct 24 2006, 04:41 PM
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The other way i'd enhance adepts is by allowing a increase mental attribute power, that would help as well, as I think adepts should have more unique tricks.
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blakkie
post Oct 24 2006, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE (Ophis)
....I think adepts should have more unique tricks.

:? Buy Street Magic?
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Ophis
post Oct 24 2006, 04:58 PM
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Yes I have, doesn't stop me wanting the ability to buy increased charisma as a power.
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blakkie
post Oct 24 2006, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (Ophis @ Oct 24 2006, 10:58 AM)
Yes I have, doesn't stop me wanting the ability to buy increased charisma as a power.

That's not a "unique" trick. :please:
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Ophis
post Oct 24 2006, 05:00 PM
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Okay so mages have a spell for it, but it being non dispellable would be unique.
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blakkie
post Oct 24 2006, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (Ophis @ Oct 24 2006, 11:00 AM)
Okay so mages have a spell for it, but it being non dispellable would be unique.

*dispells Tailored Pheromones* :dead:

Give it a break. Besides, what, you want Social Adepts to be even more over the top? Kinesics + Impoved Ability:Social just isn't enough?
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lorechaser
post Oct 24 2006, 05:16 PM
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I think I need to add this here:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...pic=11911&st=25

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Ophis
post Oct 24 2006, 05:32 PM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Ophis @ Oct 24 2006, 11:00 AM)
Okay so mages have a spell for it, but it being non dispellable would be unique.

*dispells Tailored Pheromones* :dead:

Give it a break. Besides, what, you want Social Adepts to be even more over the top? Kinesics + Impoved Ability:Social just isn't enough?

Yes.
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