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 Meet my ally spirit...a motorcycle? |
 Jun 15 2006, 10:11 PM
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#26
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Midnight Toker  Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456  |
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck then it may as well be a duck. Lets put this idea to a test. I make an ally in the smape of a break-action pistol. The ally opens itself up and I load it with a cartridge. Then, the ally strikes the cartridge's primer with its firing pin. Why does this cartridge magically not fire when struck by a manifsted spirit's firing pin? The answer is that it would. By the same token a gasoline/air mixture in a manifest ally spirit's internal combustion engine will combust just as well as it would in any other engine. The only thing to consider is the strength of the spirit's materials and its ability to handle the pressures produced by such combustion. An armor spell and decent body should ensure that a spirit can withstand the pressures of a small gunpowder explosion or fuel/air combustion. If not the spirit will take damage. For mechanical devices that don't require explosions to occur inside of the mechanism it is even easier. If a spirits form has all of the correct parts and they all work like they are supposed to then there is no difference between the spirit and the mechanism except for the facts that the spirit cannot be disassembeled and that its mechanical strength and durability are based on its stats rather than the barrier rating of whatever materials would have been used in the device. |
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Jun 15 2006, 10:32 PM
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#27
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Can a person flick their finger hard enough to ignite the primer? Can a troll? Is an ally in the form of gun made of metal (and if not, is the material "hard" or flesh like)? Does an eagle ally shit berry seeds, or do the berries sit in the "area resembling a stomach" undigested?
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Jun 16 2006, 12:04 AM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I can swing a hammer hard enough to fire a bullet attached to it, which isn't very hard at all.
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Jun 16 2006, 12:28 AM
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#29
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Yeah, but an Ally shaped like a hammer doesn't do damage like one when swung. |
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Jun 16 2006, 12:52 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 193 Joined: 5-January 06 From: Louisiana Member No.: 8,132 |
Crossroads....Is that Steve Kenson or Lisa Smedman?
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Jun 16 2006, 01:00 AM
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#31
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
He doesn't have to do damage as a swung hammer. As long as he's strong enough and resilient enough to drive a pointy bit of himself into the endof a bullet. If he isn't that way normally, getting a spell to do it wouldn't be too hard. Armor or increase body might work. Or you could research "Strong Enough to Hammer a Bullet." It would probably have a negative drain level. :)
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Jun 16 2006, 01:06 AM
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#32
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Does is set off MADs? Does the chemical residue stay on the Ally in other forms? Does it leave rifling marks and are those identical every time?
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Jun 16 2006, 02:12 AM
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#33
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
No.
Yes, unless it dematerilizes. Only if it has rifling. Yes, unless they are altered using the Ritual of Change. |
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Jun 16 2006, 03:07 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 902 Joined: 5-September 03 From: Swan Hill, Victoria, Australia Member No.: 5,585 |
I am SOOOO getting a
Electronics 6 Computers 6 Gunnery Skill 6 Unarmed Mecha Combat 6 Piloting (5) -> Veritech Skill 7:spin: Before summoning an ally spirit.... Muhahahhahahahaaaa...Panzeers, Vtols, eat hot uranium-depleted rounds! GERWALK Forever! -Tir |
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Jun 16 2006, 03:57 AM
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#35
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ugh, i have that transformer figure :silly: |
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Jun 16 2006, 04:54 AM
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#36
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Who says a default spirit shape would have a working firing pin? Or a working breech, or a working trigger mechanism? All the spirit does is *look* like a gun, it doesn't mean it has any properties of one. If I have a hologram of a gun, why should it manage to do any of that? Granted, you can build an ally with all of those details, but then you're invoking the homoniculi rules. If you want to define any of the physical properties of an ally, you need to put it into a physical body. And since you're now putting the ally into a physical form, the only limits on the form are what you can physically find. And if you want the virgin or handmade telesma bonus, then you are going to have to build the whole thing from scratch; additionally, this being an ally, you'd have to at least research the physical form somewhat. |
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Jun 16 2006, 02:12 PM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Does it say that it only looks like what you want it to look like, or does it say "you choose the form?" If it's the latter, then the form you choose can be "a working gun."
Note that in my games I'd frown heavily on anyone wanting a spirit in the form of a functioning technical device or with any technological skills, but from what I vaguely remember of the rules it should be possible. |
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Jun 16 2006, 05:00 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
It take a lot to keep an engine running, so would the spirit be covered in oil, gas, brake fluid, and the many other liquids it takes to keep it running smoothly. So an ally spirit could be a motorcycle, but if it changed forms, or became incorporial, it would have to be re-oiled, re-fueled, well, you get the idea. It would also have to deal with the constant explosions inside it's body. And a way to ignite the spark plugs. It just seems easier to get a real bike.
For an ally spirit to become an electronic device, you'd need the software installed, the ally spirit won't have that knownledge, maybe if the conjourer had computer (programming) at the appropriate levels and wrote the programs for each catigory (MPCP, ASIST, etc..). And it would have to have a way to put up with the extreme heat that electronic devices produce. It would also have to have some sort of eletricity resistance to deal with the voltage shooting through it's body. The conjourer would have to have a great deal of knowledge about the device also. Seems easier to get a real electronic device. For an ally spirit to be a gun, which would be the easiest, the conjourer would need to know a good deal about the gun in question. The ally would have to have a way to handle the explosion inside it's body and it would have to be rifled if you want the bullet to fly straight. Guns do have to be oiled, not just to resist rust, but so everything keeps working right. It would have to use outside ammunition. With guns being so cheap, just seems easier to buy a real gun. So, in closing, yes, it's possible to have an ally spirit do all of these retarded things, but it's be easier to build it / buy it yourself. I believe Talon's ally spirit just looks like a motorcycle and moves at it's spirit speed. My players like to say "but that's not realistic" a lot. I say one of two things, "You're an Elf." or "Subjective Reality." P.S. This is my longest post ever. |
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Jun 16 2006, 11:52 PM
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#39
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716 |
Just to clarify and wrap up. Yes the "crossroads" author was Steve Kenson, and i was talking about the mage Talon and his spirit Arcaros.
It was able to be a wolf, eagle, and motorcycle. When he did make it appear as a motorcycle i think he specifically mentioned revving up the engine and stuff. I thought it was retarded for it to be able to do that, but then again I havent got to play alot of shadowrun so i didnt know exactly what WAS possable hehe. |
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Jun 16 2006, 11:57 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,379 Joined: 16-April 02 From: the LI shadows Member No.: 2,607 |
Check the rules in MitS. I believe it's possible, and moves at the Spirit's rate of speed, but it was in his novel. He took a little dramatic licence. Also, check with your GM. If s/he says "too munchkin", don't use it.
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Jun 17 2006, 02:46 AM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 23-May 06 From: California Free State Member No.: 8,597 |
In the Wolf and Raven story "Quicksilver Sayanora," there's an ally spirit in the shape of a sixty-foot long yacht. However, it didn't duplicate every feature of a ship. It had no engines or propellers. As for what the rules said, Magic in the Shadows, p. 108 specifically says:
When Talon's spirit manifests in physical form, it has same the attributes whether it's a motorcycle or an eagle. A Great Dragon has different attributes from a drop bear, but a spirit with Great Dragon and drop bear forms has the same physical attributes. I would infer that to mean when manifesting, an ally spirit takes the appearance of an item, but does not actually become the item, with all of its associated powers and features. However, I can't find where it says which quickness multiplier to use for movement. |
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Jun 17 2006, 04:25 AM
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#42
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
It says "physical form", but as Glorian pointed out, it also makes pains to demonstrate that the physical form has zero effect on the physical attributes. Something in the shape of a gun, but without the attributes of a gun, isn't going to be able to fire bullets. And I have no problem letting someone have a spirit with a technological form, *if* they use the homoniculus rules. If they enchant a cyberdeck to be an inhabiting focus, then that's perfectly all right. You can enchant a sword, and get the "intelligent weapon" trick out of it as well; if you want to enchant your dikoted AVS, you can do that, too. ;)
Dramatic license. Then again, if an ally has the form of a horse, why shouldn't it be able to whinny and shake? It's basically just window-dressing.
GM's call. Spirit movement multipliers aren't explicitly mentioned anywhere that I can think of. The one time it came up in one of my games, we discussed a house rule to allow the ally to have a limited version of the Movement power to simulate this. You'll have to find out what works for your own games, I'm afraid. |
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Jun 17 2006, 07:57 AM
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#43
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
So what exactly would prevent an ally sprit shaped like a tube with a pin itn it from using its strength to crush the primer of a cartridge that has been shoved in the tube? Guns don't have physical stats. No inanimate object does. Show me a firearm qith Quickness, Strengt, or Body and the analogy would be apt. Wihtout these things thre is nothign stopping the spirit from functioning as a gun. I will happily admit that a spirit should be required to resist damage whenever it is fired and I would point out that such a spirit gun should have a damage code of (STR)M Stun by the letter of the rules; however, it is absurd to think that it cannot be done. Its like saying that a spirit shaped like a grandfather clock can't display the time. It's like saying that a spirit with a metahuman form can't walk because its stats don't include legs. A spirit's physical stats are equal no matter what for it has because a spirit's forms are all made of *handwave*. While *handwave* may appear to be flesh or steel it is not. *Handwave* can absorb a lot of damage without comprimsing the spirits health as is represented by Immunity to Normal Weapons But its durability is ultimatly limited by the spirit's stats. The question that we must consider is *handwave*'s ability to withstand pressures of a cartridge being fired without deforming significantly. The answer may be yes or no depending on the spirit's force and its body. An ally spirit with the form of a metahuman should be mechanically identical to a metahuman and should be able to move like a metahuman of equivilant stats. An ally spirit with the form of a grandfather clock should be mechanically identical to a grandfather clock and should be able to keep time. Being a spirit, it should also be able to set itself. An ally spirit with the shape of a firearm should be mechanically identical to a firearm and should opperate like a firearm. It may operate like a defective firearm that explodes in your hand when fired but it would still operate like a firearm. There are, of course, exceptions. An Ally spirit with the form of a grandfather clock will be more intelligent, more perceptive and more durable than a real grandfather clock. While Mr. Axe-Wielding Troll can easily reduce a real grandfather clock to splinters he has to deal with the spirit's immunity to normal weapons and its Body. Likewise, the expanding gasses within a gun-shaped allyspirit will have to be resisted with Immunity to Normal Weapons and Body. This could cause problems. My advise is to not let anything explode inside your ally spirit. |
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Jun 17 2006, 08:37 AM
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#44
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Everything you say about why you should be able to fire bullets from a gun-shaped spirit makes sense within the context you provide, so that's fine if it's how the GM wishes to play it. I personally have a different take on it in that the magician chooses the spirit's outward form only. A golem made of concrete wouldn't have muscles and organs within it, I don't see that any other form would necessarily need the internal mechanics (organic or inorganic) to replicate any other form. In short, you can have a spirit that is a simulacrum of a car, and I'd let you sit in it, I suppose, but you couldn't lift the bonnet and see an engine. You couldn't lift the bonnet at all. The spirit doesn't understand car mechanics, or human biology, but it knows what the magician wishes it to look like and it does its best to take that shape, but that is as far as it goes. That's how I would handle it anyway. Hormunculous is there for actual inhabited objects. A materialising howitzer is just too open to abuse as is a banshee with Immunity to Normal Weapons. |
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Jun 17 2006, 10:04 AM
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#45
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
But the magician doesn't tell the ally want to look like. The magician designs the ally's form and incorporates it into the spirit's formula. The difference is very important. The ally doesn't have toknow anything about cars or guns or internal organ so long as the magician does and specificly includes those parts in the formula.
As for the howitzer and the thunderird, I suspect they'd have to be very high force. As I have mentioned I'd rule that an explosion occuring inside the ally would hurt it. Most would be disrupted by a single howitzer shot. And, as someone else pointed out, it wouldn't be able to materialize with fuel or oil or anything else. A dry t-bird ain't very useful. |
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Jun 17 2006, 10:50 AM
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#46
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
As I said:
In the context you are using, your argument makes perfect sense. I only ever take issue with people's arguments where they are internally inconsistent. However, I am using a different context for my games which I think is neat and balanced without sacrificing fluffy flavour. I just offer it here as an alternative for GMs who are concerned with players designing burst-firing ally spirits. The howitzer and the banshee were my typical exaggerations to be colourful. A materialising shotgun or just a small car with immunity to normal weapons would still be sufficiently headachesome for me as a GM. Nevermind that I've just thought of having some allys materialise as cyberlimbs. Player: "I'm just a poor mulitple amputee, let me in." Guard: "Okay" Player: ZA-POW! |
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Jun 17 2006, 04:48 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
I love it when my posts are ignored.
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Jun 17 2006, 05:11 PM
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#48
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992 |
Too late. :P |
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Jun 17 2006, 05:42 PM
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#49
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Heh - at least yours aren't six paragraphs long and ignored! ;) But if it's any consolation
You're a 'someone else' but you're in there! JongWK - that's brilliant! :rotfl: |
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Jun 17 2006, 07:54 PM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
And people say we shouldn't have gone into Iraq!
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