 Over the top Force, Spirits, Concealment, and Mana Bolt |
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 Jun 15 2006, 06:59 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717  |
Ahem...
There is no cap on Magic. With enough Magic (really not that much) you can cast Mana bolts capable of killing any non-counterspelling person flat dead no problem. Mana Bolt is only (Force/2) Drain, BASE DAMAGE is based on the force of the spell, and that damage is only resisted by Willpower (plus counterspelling if you're lucky enough to have your non-cybered mage friend go first). No armor, nor Armor spell, not much at all. Even with 6 Will (7 if you bought that Pain Editor) that's squat. Concealment provides penalties to Perception tests equal to the Force of the Spirit on a number of targets equal to, yet again, Force. Being as force isn't limited by anything but your mages's Magic x2 two that means Force 6, 7, 8, etc. Concealment on the entire party for as long as the Spirit sustains it (which incurs no penalties, they're Critters using natural Critter powers). Most people don't even have that many die. Some the example NPC's in the rulebook don't even have enough to stand a chance (The Renraku Red Samurai leader guy only has 8 dice). I put my PC's up against SWAT team like NPCs only to see them get mowed down in mere IP's. The SWAT guys were surprised (+6 ambush to the surprise test) and couldn't see where the shots were coming from (no REA to dodge). Is that right? What's more summoning high level spirits (but not neccesarily binding them) seems way too easy. My Dwarven Mage uses 13 dice to summon (+5 Edge usually) and has summoned several Force 10 spirits of man pretty easy. Plus those spirits roll 20 dice (Force in skills and Force Magic) for spellcasting and the like. With the Analyze Device spell (which I can give it via Innate Spell) it can hack for me. That's right. All tests with a given commlink that I give it are augmented by the net hits the <b>Spirit</b> receives on it's spellcasting roll (20 dice, remember?) are adding to the Programs I give it. On top of all those crazy dice it gets naturally it can use (Force) in Edge. I am doing something wrong? From what I can tell the whole Force system is broken when put side to side with other PCs that cap. I would love for someone to put me in my place. I really want to be wrong. I have already considered nixing spirits from my game already. Can some one give me some perspective???? |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:10 PM
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#2
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The Dragon Never Sleeps Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 |
Totally new and undiscovered ideas!
Yes. Magic and spirits can be overpowering. Until you die summoning a spirit, which is going to happen. And unlimited advancement means you can become incredibly powerful, but first you need to get the karma. And survive. |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:18 PM
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#3
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Agreed. 1/50 times that Dwaft is going to be eating 14 damage from drain. That's assuming the spirits don't use edge.
Yes, a very powerful mage can kill an unprotected human pretty easily. Fortunately, important people are never unprotected for that very reason. And is it really that much easier than killing an unprotected person with a Panther Cannon? I understand that you're worried about what a 1000 Karma spellcaster could do, but I suggest you worry about that when you actually have one. Besides, if spirits are really that easy to make uber, then you're going to need them to combat the other guy's spirits. |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:24 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
It's not even 1000 karma that I'm woried about, its right now at about 80.
And surviving is never a problem, there's always Edge. |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:28 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
And you don't have to summon ungodly spirits to take advantage of Concealment.
The only reason I'm asking is because the effect spirits are having on my gaming group is a little distressing. Im not preaching, im pleading. Are these problems in only my group? If not how do other groups reconcile thme? |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:33 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Also, the difference between having armor and high Reaction to save you from that Panther and having high Will and maybe some counterspelling for that unavoidable direct manabolt is considerable. It is far less likely that you'll have adequate protestion against that Manabolt. Most PC's don't and we can't all be Awakened.
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Jun 15 2006, 07:36 PM
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#7
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Allright. True, you could always Escape Certain Death if the drain would otherwise destroy you, but if that happens you're taking a big karma hit and the GM ought to be spanking you pretty hard.
Yes, spirits can cast uber powerful spells, are you taking a minute per spell to erase every astral signature, or are you being actively hunted by the police and military? I'm pretty sure having a spirit hack for you is munchy, and shouldn't be allowed. They can't use trodes, so no VR. I suppose they could see an AR display, I think this is more a case of the GM failing to disallow an obviously munchy and against the spirit of the rules abuse. I would rule that a spirit is always using astral perception (and why woulnd't they, they're a purely astral being) and can't see the AR display in a useful way. As for using an additional Force dice from edge. Yes, it can. Now why would it want to? Unless it's resisting being bound into servitute by it's summoner, it really has no motivation to try THAT hard. Worst case scenario it gets disrupted and gets to go home early. They can use edge. That doesn't mean they will. Regarding concealment. Some things are so obvious that they don't require a perception test to see. Even with concealment you still have to be sneaky. |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:41 PM
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#8
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
If you're referring to using the "Survive certain death" use of Edge, well... all it says is you survive. Spending the next couple of runs in Intensive Care or getting brain damage or picking up whichever flaw makes certain types of spirits dislike you (because you pissed off a minor-deity-level spirit) are all viable things to tag on to a summoning of a F10 spirit gone horribly, horribly wrong. You think summoning these things is nuts? I've got a player who binds them. I'm going to roll well one of these days, and he's going to turn into a red smear. Statistical average is 12P damage for that summons, and a minor deviation drives that upwards to a nigh-unsurvivable number quite easily... |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:42 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Roll behind the screen. Turn all those 4s into 5s. Then unleash the fury. |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:45 PM
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#10
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Just remember, if that spirit decided to use its edge (force) on the test for summong it, then you'd be in a world of hurt.
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Jun 15 2006, 07:46 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Seeing a person is a Threshold 2. Still with concealment my NPCs can't cut two hits to save their butts or even get a shot in. That's without the Players using infiltration. the very thought makes me queasy.
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Jun 15 2006, 07:49 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
I like that and the red smear |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:53 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
Your mage friend doesn't need to go first to protect you with his counterspelling. Counterspelling works even outside of a mages initiative. It just needs to be declared like the full defense action, and only uses up a mages free action, so they are free to sling spells and the like anyway. As for summoned spirits being used for hacking... That really doesn't sit well with me. No way I would allow that as a GM. Speaking of which, a spirit is technically an NPC, controlled by the GM, who should have authority over whether the spirit uses ts edge (if it even has any) and how much it follows the spirit of the commands it is given. More powerful spirits are more likely to resent being summoned and more likely to find ways to screw the summoning mage. There are always consequences when messing with powerful magic. The GM just has to impose them. Manabolts and other physical combat spells have visibilty modifiers. If the guards are dumb enough to stand around in the open they deserve to get geeked, either by the mage's manabolt, or the gun bunnie's bullets. |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:53 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Okay, but what about concealment? I've had special ops groups fall to my street urchin PCs. There was FBA and Ultrasound and Ares Alphas. The only thing that came of that was a slaughter and the looting of all that cool stuff. I couldn't even fool them with implanted tracers in the equipment, they caught on quick. Quick enough to get off pretty much scott free
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Jun 15 2006, 07:57 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Manabolt is a Direct combat spell meaning you just need LOS. There's no ranged combat roll like the elemental spells. |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:58 PM
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#16
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
If the spirits use edge he'll be taking 14 damage over half the time. 20 damage fully 10% of the time.
If he's abusing spirits, give him spirit bane. That's plenty of justification to use edge to resist him. And I still don't think a spirit can use an AR display. Does concealment work on the astral plane? I'm not sure. Security doesn't need to see them if they have a vague idea where they are plus shotguns and grenades. Land mines don't need to see you either. Or gas. Or surpressive fire. |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:59 PM
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#17
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
It's not a ranged combat roll. It's a spellcasting roll. And it's subject to visibility modifiers just like ornot said. |
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Jun 15 2006, 07:59 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
As far as roleplaying the reluctant spirit, it becomes much more difficult to do when the Summoner has Spirit affinity. would the spirit still be so reluctant? Not enough to help, though it is my decision in the end.
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Jun 15 2006, 08:01 PM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I don't believe concealment works on the astral. In fact I'm pretty certain that you can't conceal anything on the astral plane. If they make copious use of magic, have some astral defenses for your NPCs, a mage on overwatch or even a spirit. You oculd even give them a dual natured paranimal or something.
Alternatively you could use some of the FAB bacteria from SR3. the Magic eating strain 3 was always nasty. It's always worth remembering that you don't always have to use heavily armed and armoured enemies. Automated defenses are entertaining and traps. Or be creative and have the Johnson insist on various constraints. |
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Jun 15 2006, 08:02 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Does cover count as a visibility mod?
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Jun 15 2006, 08:02 PM
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#21
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Spirit Affinity is fine. If he doesn't treat his spirits well or role play that relationship well, or if he uses his spirits stupidly, then he loses Spirit Affinity. Qualities are earned and lost through RPing. Just because he spends a couple points to start with it does not make it his god-given right to posess no matter how he acts. All spirit affinity gives him is one more step between himself and spirit bane, as far as I'm concerned.
And if he actually is RPing well and only summoning these powerful spirits for good reasons, and putting a lot of energy into maintaining a good relationship with him, then I really don't see a problem with getting a benefit out of that. |
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Jun 15 2006, 08:03 PM
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#22
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Only if it's opaque. :) |
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Jun 15 2006, 08:03 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
Spirits can still get pissy if they feel they're being taken advantage of. Like the housemates that keep "borrowing" your food or your clothes. They pretty much stop being your friends after a while. |
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Jun 15 2006, 08:09 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Yeah, guess I have been lax on the whole exploitation of spirits. It's just so vague straight from the rules.
And I really don't know about the whole applying visi mods to Direct spellcasting checks. Is that really how everybody else handles that? I mean no other spellcasting check is subject to visibility modifiers, why are direct combat spells? They roll the same type of opposed tests. ----> EDIT: Ooops, I found where it says Visibility Mods count on spellcasting. Thanks for that, we've been doing that wrong.... |
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Jun 15 2006, 08:14 PM
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#25
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
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