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> Movement the Power, How to handle break-neck the Flash speed
Samaels Ghost
post Jun 16 2006, 02:45 AM
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What exactly does everyone else do in regards to the powerful Movement critter power? I'm trying to make some sort of houserule to counteract it's munchkining, something like crash tests when rounding corners or brake speeds (how fast you slow down).

Any suggestions are appreciated. :D
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coolgrafix
post Jun 16 2006, 04:13 AM
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QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
What exactly does everyone else do in regards to the powerful Movement critter power? I'm trying to make some sort of houserule to counteract it's munchkining, something like crash tests when rounding corners or brake speeds (how fast you slow down).

Any suggestions are appreciated. :D

What happened in your game to bring this to your attention?

Seems harmless enough at a first read. It is sustained, can only be used on one target at a time, limited terrain type.

In SR3 the movement rate was multiplied/divided by the critter's Essence, not Magic, but otherwise worked the same.
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UndeadPoet
post Jun 16 2006, 08:16 AM
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QUOTE (coolgrafix)
[...]limited terrain type.

This part of the description has been taken directly from SR3, I think. Since there are no spirit domains in SR4 anymore, it works practically everywhere if you have a spirit sustain it on you.
It is a very funny and strong power indeed, but not too broken.
Someone in these forums here said the speed was not actual speed. You do not deal more damage if you rush up to an opponent and kick him in the face. You do not wreck cars with your fist either, just because you are faster.
You simply are faster on the spot you desire, that's all. No dodge bonus either. It ultimately affects the movement rate, not more, not less. Strong, yes, broken, no.
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Samaels Ghost
post Jun 16 2006, 11:55 AM
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It seems a common theme with our runs that spirit powers tend to give NPCs such trouble that the runs become too easy. With movement (a power that stays for as long as you sustain it, with no sustaining mods) NPC's can no longer use positioning tactics to help them with the highly skilled runners. Cover and obstacles aren't any helps to the unfortunate NPCs. WHat's more, there's not any possibliity of retreat or ambushing if the PCs are behind you in the blink of an eye. We had a problem with using Movement on the party (several tasks, or course) making the whole mission WAY too easy.
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UndeadPoet
post Jun 16 2006, 12:03 PM
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Why should ambushing be impossible? Even a mage in astral space who moves at the speed of his mind is ambushable.
Really, if the party is surprised, the enemy will, with more or less effort, take one or two of them down.

QUOTE
Cover and obstacles aren't any helps to the unfortunate NPCs.

Why? If the NPCs save their actions and the runners let go of their cover, the NPCs can easily defeat them, since they have the first shots and the PCs are coverless.
It is not any different from equal-speedy opponents fighting, I think.

I agree on the retreat-part, though... Well, if you just can't help it, let some of the NPCs use movement, too.

In my real life group, my character also has a movement force 6 sustained on him. Yes, he is fast, and can dodge grenades and rockets with ease, while other characters have to spend a free/simple action to run away, but in a clean firefight the movement power provides not much of an advantage.
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Nim
post Jun 16 2006, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
It seems a common theme with our runs that spirit powers tend to give NPCs such trouble that the runs become too easy. With movement (a power that stays for as long as you sustain it, with no sustaining mods) NPC's can no longer use positioning tactics to help them with the highly skilled runners. Cover and obstacles aren't any helps to the unfortunate NPCs. WHat's more, there's not any possibliity of retreat or ambushing if the PCs are behind you in the blink of an eye. We had a problem with using Movement on the party (several tasks, or course) making the whole mission WAY too easy.

I just don't see the ambushing being a problem. So, the PCs are moving 6 (let's say) times their normal movement rate. If they're on foot, they're still slower than a car, so it's not like they're moving faster than the eye can see. And it is ONLY increasing their movement rate. It doesn't give them additional actions, additional initiative passes, etc.

Among other things, they still have to stop (and expend an action) to open doors. Chokepoints with barriers will still set them up perfectly for an ambush. And emplaced defenses (mines, auto-turrets, drones, etc...) don't really care how fast you are. They don't get bored with calling a Wait action every turn until Zippy the Wonder Runner comes into range.
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UndeadPoet
post Jun 16 2006, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE (Nim @ Jun 16 2006, 08:27 AM)
If they're on foot, they're still slower than a car[...]

Movement force 6 on a human = 150 metres per round, roughly 180 km/h, not all cars reach this speed(if I am not mistaken. I do not have a core book in arm's reach).

I agree on everything else you said. ;)
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Nim
post Jun 16 2006, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE (UndeadPoet)
QUOTE (Nim @ Jun 16 2006, 08:27 AM)
If they're on foot, they're still slower than a car[...]

Movement force 6 on a human = 150 metres per round, roughly 180 km/h, not all cars reach this speed(if I am not mistaken. I do not have a core book in arm's reach).

I agree on everything else you said. ;)

Yeah, looking at it again, the movement rates are a bit...odd. 4 hits on a Running test will boost a human's running speed to 33 m/turn. If they can do that for 3 turns in a row, they'd break the current world record for the 100-meter dash.
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UndeadPoet
post Jun 16 2006, 01:44 PM
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I think it is not too odd... you get 4 successes with 12 dice average. Requiring 6 agility and 6 running skill or similar, 7/5 for example. But that's alright, I think.
If the world record runner(in our times!) had around 10-12 dice, this would be realistic.
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Nim
post Jun 16 2006, 01:46 PM
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Well, but world records aren't set by people having an average day. It's safe to assume that the current record holder 'rolled very well' and probably spent Edge on the day the record was set :)

Anyway. It's not HUGELY off, it just seems a little bit high to me. I'd have set it a touch lower.
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Samaels Ghost
post Jun 16 2006, 01:48 PM
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Running is Strength, but yeah I noticed the same thing.
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coolgrafix
post Jun 16 2006, 03:33 PM
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Nothing prevents your NPCs from using the same tactics. What's good for the goose...
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Samaels Ghost
post Jun 16 2006, 04:13 PM
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True, but it's proven so effective against the NPCs that it seems unfair to use at all, against the baddies and by the baddies.
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Lagomorph
post Jun 16 2006, 04:21 PM
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I think like the other issues you've described (concealment and whatnot), that static defenses are still missing from your game. Gas traps, electric fences, suppressive fire and others, all would be able to affect and contain a zippy runner.

The other thing that can happen is guards calling for backup, heavy weapons, magic, spirits all can be on station and sent to assist a guard in trouble.
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coolgrafix
post Jun 16 2006, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE (UndeadPoet)
QUOTE (coolgrafix @ Jun 15 2006, 11:13 PM)
[...]limited terrain type.

This part of the description has been taken directly from SR3, I think. Since there are no spirit domains in SR4 anymore, it works practically everywhere if you have a spirit sustain it on you.

Hmm. Would seem to be an oversight in need of clarification. For most spirits the terrain type is obvious (air, earth, water, etc). But it seems that spirits of man and beasts also have the movement power, thus making the whole thing murky. Doh!
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 16 2006, 10:54 PM
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you can't use this on vehicles right? No breaking the speed of sound on your motorcycle. And they laughed at my dodge scoot, well whoose laughing now bwahaahahaha crash!

What about levitate speed it has movement rate of net sucesses x force of spell.
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Nim
post Jun 16 2006, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist)
you can't use this on vehicles right? No breaking the speed of sound on your motorcycle. And they laughed at my dodge scoot, well whoose laughing now bwahaahahaha crash!

What about levitate speed it has movement rate of net sucesses x force of spell.

Well, the description says 'target' and doesn't specify it has to be a creature. And the power type is Physical, not Mana. So technically, I don't see any reason why it can't target a vehicle. Of course, it's yet another example of a power that has no activation roll, and thus nothing to apply an Object Resistance modifier to. You could house-rule that the OR is subtracted from the critter's Magic rating when calculating the effect, though.
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coolgrafix
post Jun 16 2006, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist)
you can't use this on vehicles right? No breaking the speed of sound on your motorcycle. And they laughed at my dodge scoot, well whoose laughing now bwahaahahaha crash!

What about levitate speed it has movement rate of net sucesses x force of spell.

IN SR3 it was explicitly allowed to use it on vehicles and the rules were slightly different. No such mentioning of vehicles (or limitations for that matter) in SR4.
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coolgrafix
post Jun 16 2006, 11:04 PM
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For reference:

SR4 page 289...
QUOTE
Movement
------------
Type: P
Action: Complex
Range: LOS
Duration: Sustained
The critter may increase or decrease the subject’s movement rate within the terrain it controls. Multiply or divide the target’s movement rate by the critter’s Magic.

SR3 page page 265...
QUOTE
Movement
------------
Type: P
Action: Complex
Range: LOS
Duration: Sustained
The being may use the Movement power to increase or decrease a target’s movement rate within the terrain it controls by multiplying or dividing the target’s movement rate by the being’s Essence.

When the Movement power is used on vehicles, the critter makes an Essence Test with a target number equal to half the vehicle’s Body. Multiply the successes by the vehicle’s Acceleration Rating and add the result to or subtract it from the vehicle’s Speed in the next Combat turn similar to the vehicle making an Acceleration or Deceleration Test). The critter may continue making Essence Tests to increase or decrease the vehicle’s speed each Combat Turn it sustains the Movement power. Depending on the situation, this change in speed may call for a Crash or Stress Test.

As you can see, the use of the word "subject" instead of "target" now seems to preclude vehicles.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 16 2006, 11:31 PM
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yeah in SR3 and 2 I think it was described as working on vehicles, I only used it to slow pursuit because I couldn't rationalize anyone actually piloting a van etc going 400 miles an hour not even a rigger. Here it isn't mentioned and uses the term subject, so I think no but I wasn't sure.

There are a lot of things that I'm having toruble figuring out how they work in SR4 too many times I'm letting my preconceived notions from previous editions give me an answer I never saw in the SR4 book. Like how do you attack focusses can you mask focusses. In SR1-3 I knew the answers I knew I could mask 1 force of focusses for every grade of initiation. Now either I'm blind or I'm waiting for another book. Hopefully the issues wont come up until I figure it out. Sometimes its easier to learn a completely new system as opposed to a new edition. Sorry for the OT venting.
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coolgrafix
post Jun 16 2006, 11:38 PM
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Agreed on the precedent inteferring with understanding SR4 as written. You're not alone. =)

Don't have time to look it up right now but I thought rules for attacking foci (astral objects) was in SR4. What's missing is the ability to ground spells through them, which was also missing in SR3.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 16 2006, 11:47 PM
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QUOTE (coolgrafix)
Agreed on the precedent inteferring with understanding SR4 as written. You're not alone. =)

Don't have time to look it up right now but I thought rules for attacking foci (astral objects) was in SR4. What's missing is the ability to ground spells through them, which was also missing in SR3.

If its there I'm missing it, I read through the focus section and I think through the enitre astral section but couldn't find it while looking for it. It might be under wards or I missed a paragraph who knows.
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coolgrafix
post Jun 17 2006, 03:56 AM
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Hmm, well upon considerable review, I see no way to attack and affect foci on the astral. It's true that they are astral forms, and that astral forms can be attacked in astral combat, so the groundwork is there. But no mention is given to their defense value, what it takes to break one, etc. So, for all intents and purposes, I suppose we have to assume it's an advanced topic relegated to the planned magic sourcebook. =(
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Nim
post Jun 17 2006, 02:32 PM
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QUOTE (coolgrafix)
Hmm, well upon considerable review, I see no way to attack and affect foci on the astral. It's true that they are astral forms, and that astral forms can be attacked in astral combat, so the groundwork is there. But no mention is given to their defense value, what it takes to break one, etc. So, for all intents and purposes, I suppose we have to assume it's an advanced topic relegated to the planned magic sourcebook. =(

This isn't that surprising. As far as I've found, there aren't any rules for attacking (non-Barrier) physical objects, either. Why should Astral ones be different?

Now, the rule for Foci will probably end up being something like 'Armor = Force, Body = Force, CM = Force x 2'.
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Samaels Ghost
post Jun 17 2006, 02:35 PM
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CM will probably equal 8+(Force/2). After all, vehicles have CM's like players and It works the same way.
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