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#1
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 ![]() |
What exactly does everyone else do in regards to the powerful Movement critter power? I'm trying to make some sort of houserule to counteract it's munchkining, something like crash tests when rounding corners or brake speeds (how fast you slow down).
Any suggestions are appreciated. :D |
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#2
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 ![]() |
What happened in your game to bring this to your attention? Seems harmless enough at a first read. It is sustained, can only be used on one target at a time, limited terrain type. In SR3 the movement rate was multiplied/divided by the critter's Essence, not Magic, but otherwise worked the same. |
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#3
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 10-April 06 Member No.: 8,448 ![]() |
This part of the description has been taken directly from SR3, I think. Since there are no spirit domains in SR4 anymore, it works practically everywhere if you have a spirit sustain it on you. It is a very funny and strong power indeed, but not too broken. Someone in these forums here said the speed was not actual speed. You do not deal more damage if you rush up to an opponent and kick him in the face. You do not wreck cars with your fist either, just because you are faster. You simply are faster on the spot you desire, that's all. No dodge bonus either. It ultimately affects the movement rate, not more, not less. Strong, yes, broken, no. |
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#4
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 ![]() |
It seems a common theme with our runs that spirit powers tend to give NPCs such trouble that the runs become too easy. With movement (a power that stays for as long as you sustain it, with no sustaining mods) NPC's can no longer use positioning tactics to help them with the highly skilled runners. Cover and obstacles aren't any helps to the unfortunate NPCs. WHat's more, there's not any possibliity of retreat or ambushing if the PCs are behind you in the blink of an eye. We had a problem with using Movement on the party (several tasks, or course) making the whole mission WAY too easy.
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#5
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 10-April 06 Member No.: 8,448 ![]() |
Why should ambushing be impossible? Even a mage in astral space who moves at the speed of his mind is ambushable. Really, if the party is surprised, the enemy will, with more or less effort, take one or two of them down.
Why? If the NPCs save their actions and the runners let go of their cover, the NPCs can easily defeat them, since they have the first shots and the PCs are coverless. It is not any different from equal-speedy opponents fighting, I think. I agree on the retreat-part, though... Well, if you just can't help it, let some of the NPCs use movement, too. In my real life group, my character also has a movement force 6 sustained on him. Yes, he is fast, and can dodge grenades and rockets with ease, while other characters have to spend a free/simple action to run away, but in a clean firefight the movement power provides not much of an advantage. |
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#6
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 ![]() |
I just don't see the ambushing being a problem. So, the PCs are moving 6 (let's say) times their normal movement rate. If they're on foot, they're still slower than a car, so it's not like they're moving faster than the eye can see. And it is ONLY increasing their movement rate. It doesn't give them additional actions, additional initiative passes, etc. Among other things, they still have to stop (and expend an action) to open doors. Chokepoints with barriers will still set them up perfectly for an ambush. And emplaced defenses (mines, auto-turrets, drones, etc...) don't really care how fast you are. They don't get bored with calling a Wait action every turn until Zippy the Wonder Runner comes into range. |
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#7
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 10-April 06 Member No.: 8,448 ![]() |
Movement force 6 on a human = 150 metres per round, roughly 180 km/h, not all cars reach this speed(if I am not mistaken. I do not have a core book in arm's reach). I agree on everything else you said. ;) |
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#8
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 ![]() |
Yeah, looking at it again, the movement rates are a bit...odd. 4 hits on a Running test will boost a human's running speed to 33 m/turn. If they can do that for 3 turns in a row, they'd break the current world record for the 100-meter dash. |
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#9
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 10-April 06 Member No.: 8,448 ![]() |
I think it is not too odd... you get 4 successes with 12 dice average. Requiring 6 agility and 6 running skill or similar, 7/5 for example. But that's alright, I think.
If the world record runner(in our times!) had around 10-12 dice, this would be realistic. |
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#10
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 ![]() |
Well, but world records aren't set by people having an average day. It's safe to assume that the current record holder 'rolled very well' and probably spent Edge on the day the record was set :)
Anyway. It's not HUGELY off, it just seems a little bit high to me. I'd have set it a touch lower. |
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#11
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 ![]() |
Running is Strength, but yeah I noticed the same thing.
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#12
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 ![]() |
Nothing prevents your NPCs from using the same tactics. What's good for the goose...
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#13
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 ![]() |
True, but it's proven so effective against the NPCs that it seems unfair to use at all, against the baddies and by the baddies.
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#14
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 ![]() |
I think like the other issues you've described (concealment and whatnot), that static defenses are still missing from your game. Gas traps, electric fences, suppressive fire and others, all would be able to affect and contain a zippy runner.
The other thing that can happen is guards calling for backup, heavy weapons, magic, spirits all can be on station and sent to assist a guard in trouble. |
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#15
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 ![]() |
Hmm. Would seem to be an oversight in need of clarification. For most spirits the terrain type is obvious (air, earth, water, etc). But it seems that spirits of man and beasts also have the movement power, thus making the whole thing murky. Doh! |
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#16
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 ![]() |
you can't use this on vehicles right? No breaking the speed of sound on your motorcycle. And they laughed at my dodge scoot, well whoose laughing now bwahaahahaha crash!
What about levitate speed it has movement rate of net sucesses x force of spell. |
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#17
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 ![]() |
Well, the description says 'target' and doesn't specify it has to be a creature. And the power type is Physical, not Mana. So technically, I don't see any reason why it can't target a vehicle. Of course, it's yet another example of a power that has no activation roll, and thus nothing to apply an Object Resistance modifier to. You could house-rule that the OR is subtracted from the critter's Magic rating when calculating the effect, though. |
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#18
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 ![]() |
IN SR3 it was explicitly allowed to use it on vehicles and the rules were slightly different. No such mentioning of vehicles (or limitations for that matter) in SR4. |
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#19
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 ![]() |
For reference: SR4 page 289...
SR3 page page 265...
As you can see, the use of the word "subject" instead of "target" now seems to preclude vehicles. |
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#20
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 ![]() |
yeah in SR3 and 2 I think it was described as working on vehicles, I only used it to slow pursuit because I couldn't rationalize anyone actually piloting a van etc going 400 miles an hour not even a rigger. Here it isn't mentioned and uses the term subject, so I think no but I wasn't sure.
There are a lot of things that I'm having toruble figuring out how they work in SR4 too many times I'm letting my preconceived notions from previous editions give me an answer I never saw in the SR4 book. Like how do you attack focusses can you mask focusses. In SR1-3 I knew the answers I knew I could mask 1 force of focusses for every grade of initiation. Now either I'm blind or I'm waiting for another book. Hopefully the issues wont come up until I figure it out. Sometimes its easier to learn a completely new system as opposed to a new edition. Sorry for the OT venting. |
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#21
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 ![]() |
Agreed on the precedent inteferring with understanding SR4 as written. You're not alone. =)
Don't have time to look it up right now but I thought rules for attacking foci (astral objects) was in SR4. What's missing is the ability to ground spells through them, which was also missing in SR3. |
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#22
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 ![]() |
If its there I'm missing it, I read through the focus section and I think through the enitre astral section but couldn't find it while looking for it. It might be under wards or I missed a paragraph who knows. |
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#23
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 453 Joined: 15-August 02 From: Kansas City, MO Member No.: 3,116 ![]() |
Hmm, well upon considerable review, I see no way to attack and affect foci on the astral. It's true that they are astral forms, and that astral forms can be attacked in astral combat, so the groundwork is there. But no mention is given to their defense value, what it takes to break one, etc. So, for all intents and purposes, I suppose we have to assume it's an advanced topic relegated to the planned magic sourcebook. =(
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#24
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 ![]() |
This isn't that surprising. As far as I've found, there aren't any rules for attacking (non-Barrier) physical objects, either. Why should Astral ones be different? Now, the rule for Foci will probably end up being something like 'Armor = Force, Body = Force, CM = Force x 2'. |
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#25
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 ![]() |
CM will probably equal 8+(Force/2). After all, vehicles have CM's like players and It works the same way.
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