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 Shadow Income, How much is too much? |
 Jun 20 2006, 08:47 PM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 142 Joined: 29-October 05 From: Arlington, TX Member No.: 7,909  |
True for some, not so true for others... But I get your point. Unfortunately, I like the fact that you don't have to keep relearning a spell at a specific, or maximum force.
So, that fix for me isn't the greatest. Sadly, I do not have an alternative as of yet. |
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Jun 20 2006, 08:55 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
If you were going to add back in the idea of spells being force-limited, you wouldn't have to do it in a way that requires an upgrade after EVER increase in Magic. For instance, you could just say that spells come in Lesser (Force 3), Normal (Force 6), Greater (Force 9) and Legendary (Force 12) versions. Or some other set of tiers...you know, whatever works for you. That'd keep the feel, where your experienced mages are off hunting for rare formulas that will let them take full advantage of their ability, but keep it from being a tedious process that they have to go through EVERY time they Initiate. |
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Jun 21 2006, 12:11 AM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Going back to Sammies, while Mages/Adepts can only really use their money on spells, foci, and regular equipment then must use ALL their Karma on Magic and Initiating, Sammies are getting Karma too. The difference is that sammies are upgrading skills and attributes.
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Jun 21 2006, 03:12 AM
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#54
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
heathen :twirl: I need tons of spells. And when the big book of magic comes out, I'll need even more. Ok as a DM right now I need very little but as a player it is very important to me. 1: direct combat spell 2: direct area of effect combat spell 3 indirect combat spell 4 indirect area of effect combat spell 5: analyze truth 6: combat sense 7: detect enemies 8: detect life 10: mindlink 11: detox 12: heal 12: increase reflexes 13&14 increase spell casting attirbutes 15: oxygenate 16: stabalize 17: chaos 18: chaotic world 19: trid phantasm 20 improved invis 21: physical mask 22: silence 23: stealth 24: armor 25: levitate 25: magic fingers 26: petrify 27: physical barrier Ok I'm a freak but that's my essential must eventually have list. Asuuming I start off with 8 of them, that leaves 19 to pick up in game or 95 Karma. Which is quite a bit I'd think. The sam can do quite a bit with those 95 Karma which is imporving the number of dice being thrown, not just massively broadning there options. Of couse the sammie could also pick up some new skills for the broadning the options type growth. |
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Jun 21 2006, 09:18 AM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
That's exactly why I still use SR3's Money-for-Karma and Karma-for-Money rules. That way, as a GM I can hand out karma and nuyen at normal rates and let the players be the ones to handle the bugeting of their resources. I tend to give out about 5 karma and 7,500 nuyen per run (on average) over the early stages of a runner's career (that is, below the 100 karma mark). That means, in roughly 20 runs any given character will have 150,000 nuyen in earnings when they reach the 100 karma mark. This is not nearly enough money to keep a cyber monster happily upgraded, but more than enough karma to let them learn virtually every skill they want and increase said skills to reasonable levels. Likewise, 150,000 nuyen is a virtual fortune to a magiker, but 100 karma is just a tiny drop in the bucket compared to their karma needs. With this amount of income (in both karma and money), both general character types have enough income to upgrade a bit, but no where near what they need to be truly competative. Remember, all this time the opposition is getting tougher and more insane, and most of the time the opposition has an unlimited budget. So, when the 100 karma point in the campaign rolls around, the players still want more. While marginally satisfied that they've been able to upgrade a bit and save a bit of money, they still often feel desperate to get that little bit more karma/ nuyen that'll let them Initiate again/learn that new spell/afford that piece of beta-to-delta grade 'ware that they feel they need to stay one step ahead. That's where the Karma-to-Money rules come in, allowing the character to trade off what they don't need (as much) for what they do (desparately) need. This makes the players happier, but also has the side-effect of draining their resources which leaves them needing more money/karma. Which means they go on more runs, facing tougher and tougher opposition/problems and making more enemies that they need to upgrade to cope with, which leads them back to the same dilemma. The net effect of this is that it leaves the players always hungry for more, and it works like a charm. In 15 years of playing and GMing SR, I've never had a "campaign" end due to lack of interest and only seen a grand total of 4 characters actually retire. 8) |
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Jun 21 2006, 08:26 PM
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#56
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 22-May 06 From: Bellevue, WA Member No.: 8,590 |
How exactly do the Karma for Money and Money for Karma rules work? What's the ratio, and can it be done any time, or does it take a short downtime, or maybe a long one?
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Jun 21 2006, 08:34 PM
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#57
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Just going by the numbers he left it looks like about 1500 :nuyen: to 1 karma.
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Jun 21 2006, 09:41 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Using the rule that it takes 2*BP in Karma to buy new advantages.
We go with 2Karma for every 5,000 :nuyen: |
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Jun 21 2006, 10:22 PM
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#59
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
WHere might one find the rules for such a Karma/money conversion? I have a SR3 handbook that I haven't looked all the way through yet so if it is in there I should be able to find it....
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Jun 22 2006, 06:33 AM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
This is how my group works it nowadays (from our house rules):
A few clarifications - 1) A "significant amount of down time" can mean anything from a couple of days to a week to a month or more depending on the player's justification for the exchange. Giving 50,000 ¥ to help establish a school on the outskirts of the barrens would take a few weeks (to round up volunteers, equipment, security, etc), but blowing the same amount in a gambling and partying spree to honor Coyote could only take a couple of days (plus recovery time of course ;) ). 2) "Only with gamemaster permission" generally means an exhange like this: PC - I wanna blow some money to get some karma. GM - Ok, you've got some downtime to do it in. What's your explanation? PC - {insert plausible explanation here} GM - 'Kay {forks over the karma} 3) The stipulation that the character that receives the Karma does not necessarily have to be the one who pays for it is our game mechanic justification for college education, military training, etc. It has never come up in game. 4) The Karma Inflation and Nuyen Multipliers are variable for a reason. In the early stages of a campaign (25-50 karma) I use the base rates to prevent player's from abusing the system (and screwing themselves in the process). As things progress, the Nuyen Multipler tends to go up (depending on circumstance and local conditions) while the Karma Inflation rate tends to decrease slightly (but never below 1). This has the effect of allowing me to both simulate the campaign's local economic environment and to tailor the exchange rates to the PC's needs to a degree. 5) The Karma-for-Money rules use a variable range to simulate the vaguries of luck and to easily work with our house rules for handling the stock markets, which are as follows:
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Jun 22 2006, 06:45 AM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
They originally came out in the SR2 Companion book, and were reprinted in the SR3 Companion. Prior to the release of the SR2 companion, groups I've been involved with just used a hapzard way of exchanging the two comodities. The Companion provided a more solid framework to use for this sort of thing, but as you can see in the house rules I just posted some of that hapzardness is still hanging around, one of our many legacy systems 8) |
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Jun 22 2006, 06:48 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
That's exactly what it comes out to at our base rate (on the karma end), and we haven't changed the base rate since SR3. Weird :eek: |
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Jun 22 2006, 01:18 PM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Does this mean that you not only get money out of trading stock but also Karma? Wait....You invest in stock, go sell it later, then have to immediately spend it on Karma? THat's a little weird... What kind of justification can you give for getting Money for Karma??? Does anyone have examples? |
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Jun 22 2006, 01:22 PM
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#64
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
gambling
betting on stuff high risk investements |
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Jun 22 2006, 01:25 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
ok, thanks
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Jun 22 2006, 03:30 PM
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#66
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
...a week as a 'paid volunteer' in an Aztechnology Esoteric Projects Division research procedure....
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Jun 22 2006, 04:03 PM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Serbitar has the right of it in this circumstance. The other way, trading in money to get Karma, can be viewed as paying to attend things like spiritual retreats, motivational seminars, and paying for "blessings" from that creepy hoodoo guy who lives in the abandoned brownstone down the street. |
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Jun 22 2006, 04:06 PM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 142 Joined: 29-October 05 From: Arlington, TX Member No.: 7,909 |
Or sometimes things like helping the downtrodden, giving to charity, working to restore some house burned in a fire(That left a family homeless), etc. |
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Jun 22 2006, 05:14 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
ARGH FORMATTING BAD
But yes, just about anything where you're expending nuyen toward the goal of mental, emotional, or spiritual well-being would be acceptable. |
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Jun 23 2006, 06:22 AM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 831 Joined: 5-September 05 From: LAX, UCAS Member No.: 7,687 |
Nope, you don't get karma per se. You get what basically amounts to points to plug into the same formula used for Money-for-Karma. That's why I refer to them as "psuedo-karma" points. Here's an example of the actual process of selling stock under this system:
* Since he is a Shadowrun player, the GM has far more than 40 six-siders lying around, just in case ;) Again, some notes: 1) Notice that the GM used the Nuyen Multiplier to reflect the current approximate condition of Proteus AG's stocks, letting the mechanic reflect the setting. 2) Notice the GM didn't tell the player what the actual Nuyen Multiplier was, he only told the player what the market analysis program determined. This allowed him to fudge the Multiplier if the 40d6 roll was really high, thus maintaining setting integrity (ie Proteus AG's stock was in a slide and Nightmare wasn't going to profit much if at all from the sale) and excercise some control over just how much income Nightmare made by doing essentially nothing. 3) The GM didn't do it, but he would have been well within his rights to make Nightmare spend one or more actual karma points on the sale. This would have resulted in more profit (+1d6 x 250 ¥ per karma point), but would have helped enforce a bit of balance if the sale stood to be a major windfall.
Geekkake, Shadowmeet, Nim, and Serbitar pretty much covered this one. |
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