Give the sammies a little love..., where do they shine? Options

[Apathy]

As a GM, I want every player in the game to feel like their PC's made an important contribution. My problem is that, while there's lots of threats that only mages can handle, I haven't really found many scenarios that can only be fixed by the street sam.

• If they run across a high force (say, force 10) spirit, they're completely ineffective unless they have a conjuror or spellcaster.
• If they run across a critter with regeneration, the only way to keep him from healing is with magic.

Actually, these examples are okay with me - I like it that mages can do things that nobody else can. But I want to come up with scenarios where the sams are essential, too. I don't want my next group to just be 4 mages and a TM rolling over everything...

What situations can anybody think of that require the sam's skills/abilities, but not the mage's?

[BishopMcQ]

I think Sams start to shine when the lead fills the air.

Sams can get through the Astral barriers that stop mages and their bullets kill people just as well as power bolts without having to worry about hurting themselves in the process.

[Butterblume]

Hm, a firefight against a clever OpForce, or when the team gets ambushed, or when the mage is tired ;).

A mage with even a little offensive capabilities can influence situations where there's need for a streetsam. The rule 'geek the mage first' of course also counts for the OpForce... so the mage probably should take cover in a firefight.

[Shrike30]

If they run up against a F10 spirit, they've got a better chance than most character types to hurt it with mundane combat. Take a shotgun, load it with Stick-n-shock (dropping the armor of the spirit from 20 to 10 and giving them a shot at stunning it), and rip into it with a few rounds. If you have them using something BF or FA, you can eke out a few more points of damage without starting to drop a lot of pool that would otherwise go towards getting the successes you need to hit the thing.

The fact that it's not too hard to get spirits that are as heavily armored as a GMC Banshee is annoying, yes, but that doesn't mean it can't be hurt by non-magical types. If there's some balance in the campaign, you'll only be seeing those hauled out with regularity when the opposition is capable of dealing with them.

[Apathy]

[Nim]

Hmm. Well, let's see.

* A gun-bunny can go through a looooong engagement, assuming they've got pockets full of reloads. In a running battle, the drain WILL start to add up for the mages.

* Some recent threads have touched pretty well on the problems with always keeping a stack of active foci or sustained spells going. That means that your mages aren't always going to have Improve Reactions going when they get jumped. Lacking anyone on the team who ALWAYS has an initiative bonus and several passes per turn, your mages might be blown to chum before they get a chance to start throwing the Manaballs.

* Mechanical threats. A White Knight is a lot more effective agaist a combat drone than a Powerball would be.

I'm sure there are others. Somebody?

[Nim]

Oh. Another minor case: a street sam (with a grenade, or firing full-auto) can kill someone he can't see.

[Butterblume]

So can a mage, if he knows an appropriate spell and is willing to risk the drain (indirect elemental combat spells tend to have a hefty on :D).

Also, mages would probably not be happy about battling a few combat drones (when the mages aren't maxed out, of course).

[Lagomorph]

Our street sam dodged in the open covered only by a smoke grenade, 4 tir ghosts using short bursts, for about 5 rounds. (thats 20 IP of dodging, and about 120 rounds btw).

Now thats shine.

[Jaid]

they are also quite handy for niche skills.

like demolitions. very nice to have when you need it, and your typical mage or decker won't likely have it. and it's the kind of thing you definitely don't want to chip...

[Tiger Eyes]

Mages and hackers have to dump a lot of buildpoints in becoming so specialized. A good sam, on the other hand, can actually have lots of useful skills.

Also, a point to remember is what kind of runs are you doing? Sure, a team with one hacker (or a technical adept, why not!) and a handful of spell slingers is going to be rocking. But what Johnson would be able to afford their fees? And why would a Johnson be hiring such a magic heavy team to go do some corporate demolitions or data thefts or... you get the point. That kind of team is going to get some very specific jobs.

However, a team with a couple of useful sams (and I don't mean cybered-to-the-gills min/max sams) boasting a variety of skill sets... plus a hacker and a mage (for those must-have magic moments) is going to be able to handle a much broader variety of jobs. More variety=more fun.

And in games where the mage isn't a combat monster :eek: the street sam shines even more. Personally, I like having a mage/shaman around for all the other nifty things they can do. Like physical mask, heal, levitate, summoning hordes of watchers... not the combat. Our philosophy: Let the sams blast stuff. We like to keep our mage fresh to heal the rest of us. :grinbig:

[ShadowDragon8685]

Your typical Sammie won't have it either, or if he does, he's usually played by the last guy you want to have explosives, in-game or otherwise.

Sammies... Really don't get any shine. In melee, they're outdone by PhysAds, in a gunfight they're outdone by Adepts who focus on firearms. They obviously only make third-rate hackers if they even hack at all........ Hmmmmmm....

[Teulisch]

the job of the mage, first and foremost, is counterspelling, banishing, and astral reconisance. Healing and illusion are the best spells for a mage to have. combat is a distant third, and only really necessary against certain paranormal threats.

If your in a firefight, with 10 guys with guns and two spirits? the mage is too busy with the spirits to worry about the 10 guys with assault rifles. those guys with guns are the sams job.

A sam, from a practical standpoint, has 3+ IP, boosted senses, smartlink, and better agility, and better resistance to gunfire. They have more boosts than any un-initiated adept could have. (the adept has more skill in his niche than a sam ever can).

a Street Samuri's first job is combat, both neutralizing the enemy (normaly with lethal force but not always), and defending his team. A sam's second job will depend on the individual. (personaly, i like armory and hardware skills).

[Shinobi Killfist]

[X-Kalibur]

[Shrike30]

Most of the physad gunbunnies I see get contact smartlinks and the bio Wired equivalent. It's kind of pathetic, actually... they haven't figured out the fact that yeah, you're spending 2 more magic levels than to do that as an ability rather than just getting the ware, but you save a lot of cash in the process and can push it to level 3 later...

I am sad that smartlinks not being as cool if they weren't the cyber ones went away. That was one of the things I wish we'd kept around.

A physad gunbunny is going to be really amazingly good at *one* of the gun skills. He'll probably be pretty good at the others, but when he ends up in a situation where his equipment is somewhat restricted (can't smuggle in a rifle, can't scrounge up a machine pistol or assault rifle in the CZ, the guy you're shooting at is outside the 60m max range of your handgun, etc) they get annoyed :P A lot of the sammies have a number of combat skills to pick and choose from at nearly the same number of dice (ie: more than a lot of the people around them).

[nezumi]

Something else to consider, you can always introduce new rules or weapons to help even the odds. Characters with lots of ware apply their essence index as a bonus against magic (it works against heal spells, and OR generally makes magic more difficult. So why not?) All of a sudden, the mages are good against mages and spirits, but a wired street same will give them a little more reason to pause. Alternatively, consider making an offensive magical weapon ("dual natured bullets", for lack of a better term) mundanes can wield. If they have the ability to hurt things like spirits, or somehow bomb an area with a temporary background count, that makes them a lot more fearsome (and makes curious astral intruders a little less uber).

[Nim]

[Dudukain]

I'd rather have a street samurai with wired reflexes 3 and a LMG backing me up then a mage.

[Cain]

Generally speaking, a well-built sam can front-load himself into an extreme combat machine. Right out of the gate, they can (and should) be faster, more accurate, and more dangerous than any other archetype.

The key to making any character valueable in SR4 is hyperspecialization. If you try and make a generalist, you'll just end up being outshone in more areas. Despite its claims to the contrary, the game rewards those who have a really tight focus. You're better off-- mechanically and roleplay-wise-- creating someone who's a super-expert in one or two areas and passable in several others, than trying for someone who's decent in all of them.

It's impossible to be truly effective in all forms of combat, and it's more efficient to focus on a single type of combat. For example, it costs you 40 points to max out your firearms group. For those same 40 points, you could take your primary attack skill to 5 (let's say Automatics-- you're wanting a John Woo, dual-SMG, gun-fu expert). You then spend 16 points to raise longarms and pistols to 2, and then spend 3 points to specialize in each of the categories. (Actually, given the concept, you're better off only putting 1 in Longarms, since that doesn't really fit your concept overly much. You can move it to pistols, making you a bit more versatile and capable, since pistols are the most common firearm; or you can put it into automatics, making you more deadly overall.) The net result? For 39 points, you're at an effective 7 dice in your primary skill, and at an effective 4 dice in everything else.

The same thing applies to your cyber choices, which are the heart of the street sam archetype. If you try and diversify too much, you'll just end up ineffective in more areas. You're better off focusing tightly on one or two areas. For example, it's impossible to get someone who is at once an effective meat shield, effective dodging machine, effective sniper, effective combat shootist, and an effective decker/rigger/techhead all in one. You're better off focusing on one area, having a second area as a backup, and being passable in the rest.

For some reson, pointing this stuff out tends to enrage a lot of SR4 fans. The system isn't designed to favor balanced characters-- that's just the way it is. In SR4, Diversity = mediocrity, and medicore characters just aren't much fun.

[Jaid]

[DrowVampyre]

Actually, the sammie can be the ultimate generalist -and- and extremely effective specialisty. Specialize in your ranged combat (or melee, perhaps, if you're a troll), then grab yourself some skillwires - bam, instant generalist in anything you want. Now, you can't use Edge, true, but you're still likely to be better off than the guy with no skills trying to default all the time with occasional uses of Edge...

[Glyph]

One thing that hasn't changed is that the sammie is still the best overall combat generalist. They can start out with an assortment of combat boosts that no starting adept could afford (adepts are better at being specialists and dealing with awakened enemies). Sammies have that crucial mix of offensive capability, speed, and durability. They are the best at taking out groups of enemies while protecting the other members of the team.

[Teulisch]

hard cap for unaugmented human: 16 dice (ability 7, skill 7, specialixzation)
hard cap for an adept: 22 (ability 7(10), skill 7(10), specialization) [higher with social]
hard cap for a sam: 20 (ability 7(10), skill 7(8 ), specialization) [limited selection]

to reach that cap, an adept needs about 7 or 8 magic (depending on skill type). the starting cap is closer to 21. At chargen, the sam and adept are very close in limits, but the sam can reach his more easily.

as for more general abilities... long run, you can get 12 dice in anything/everything. anything OVER 12 dice needs you to exceed the human limit, get legendary skill, specialize, whatever. Therefore, 12+ dice is VERY good. it can on average get 4 hits, or a critical success.

and 12 dice is pretty easy to get. you can do it in multiple skills at chargen with relative ease. the sam can do it easier than the adpet.

[DrowVampyre]

Add 1 to the sammie's hard cap - they can grab a reflex recorder, after all.