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 Give the sammies a little love..., where do they shine? |
 Jun 17 2006, 09:57 AM
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#26
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449  |
I think that's why he had 7(8 ). But reflex recorders are not the only 'ware that give bonuses. A sammie can equal an adept in logic-based skills (+3 from cerebral booster vs. +3 from improved ability). For physical skills, they can add enhanced articulation to a reflex recorder for +2 dice. For athletics, they can also add synthcardium for another +3 (and both enhanced articulation and synthcardium give dice pool bonuses, rather than adding to the skill, so they don't fall under the augmented ability cap). Tailored pheromes can give a sammie a +3 bonus to social skills, although they don't even begin to approach the brokenness that is tailored pheromes.
One thing that will keep adepts and sammies more equal is the incredibly high cost of improving an attribute with magic. I don't see many adepts spending 6 points simply to get +3 on an attribute (the attribute boost power, on the other hand, is much more feasible - the only major drawback is that it takes a simple action to activate). |
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Jun 18 2006, 08:14 AM
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#27
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
The problem is that you've got a starting skillsoft cap at rating 3, and at 9000:nuyen: each, you're not going to have a tremendous stack of them. You're going to end up more mediocre than a generalist. Still, it can work well-- I built a street sam with that same principle in mind, and it keeps him from having any glaring weaknesses. You still can't get someone who's more than passable in a lot of areas, though. |
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Jun 18 2006, 03:25 PM
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#28
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I thought skillsofts capped at 4
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Jun 18 2006, 04:28 PM
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#29
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Skillwires cap at 5, but activesofts cap at 4. I'd assumed that it was an error but I don't know which one is wrong (although knowsofts cap at 5 as well). It's possible that it's not an error though as you can load more than one activesoft at a time up to the limit of your skillwires. So Pistols 4 and Dodge 1 etc. The nice thing with skillwires and activesofts now, is that they're so cheap you can justify security being fitted with them. |
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Jun 18 2006, 04:32 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
The Sammie shines when the lead is flying.
High Reaction makes him hard to hit in the first place. High Reaction makes your guy go first. All the gun skills, not just one or two, so the Sammie's good no matter what's up. |
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Jun 18 2006, 04:36 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
Speaking of making them cheap...is it possible to get a skillsoft for a speciality? From the book, I'm not seeing much either for or against. |
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Jun 18 2006, 10:50 PM
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#32
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Are Cerebral Boosters counted as natural or augmented in terms of hitting the caps, and for later increases? For instance, if a sam starts the game with Logic 5 and a Cerebral Booster 2 for startig Logic of 7, can he still increase his Logic with Karma, or is he stuck because he hit the hard cap for that attribute? And if he still could increase his Logic, how much Karma would it cost? Also remember that adepts can get 'ware, same as a sam. They just need to initiate to get rid of the magic loss. This is mpracticable in practice, though; it means the adept is paying far more to get the same benefits as the sam. |
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Jun 18 2006, 11:20 PM
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#33
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I'd consider cerebral boosters to be augmenting the natural attribute.
Hence you can increase your Natural attribute up to the racial maximum be it 6 for humans, elves and dwarves or 5 for orcs and so on. Were a character to boost their augmented attribute to the augmented maximum without having already reached their normal racial maximum, they could indeed increase their natural rating to the max with karma, but it would make no difference to the dice rolled as they had already hit the augmented cap. I'm not sure whether it is even possible to reach the augmented cap without also reaching the racial maximum, but if it is possible that's how I'd rule it. After all the character can always get the 'ware removed at a later stage and return to their natural rating. |
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Jun 18 2006, 11:28 PM
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#34
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That question is quite easy to answer in SR4 - it's ware, so it's augmented. |
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Jun 19 2006, 06:58 PM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 10-June 06 Member No.: 8,690 |
The weird part is, when you get down to it, street samurai are basically mundane adepts. They harness cybernetics to make themselves more powerful, and basically can get similar benefits to adepts.
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Jun 19 2006, 07:08 PM
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#36
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
Not weird at all, except that an adept doesn't die from getting a huge magic score. A sammy does when his ess hits 0. |
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Jun 20 2006, 12:30 AM
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#37
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Really? I'd rather have a good mage/shaman with a high-forece spirit.
The only real thing that sammies have going for them is the resources they can bring to a run. They've not spent anything on magic, or crazy tank drones, or programs, or mad skills. In-fact the street sam definition is so loose that I don't think they need to have spent anything whatsoever. Yes, this is in some ways a repetition of what others are saying. Some people say the fact that they can take varied skills is an advantage, but I consider that to be merely an aspect of the whole picture. Really any character with skillwires can cover the skill-monkey role just as well, and almost any cybered character has a good reason to have them. Another place where the sammies can shine, however, is in purchasing power. Having the right tool for the right job is an important concept. Also, don't underestimate positive qualities. Maybe Photographic Memory, Spirit Affinity, or Magic Resistance would be useful? Still, there's relatively little that allows a sammie to actively go out and shine. Not like a mage can by being creative with spirits. |
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Jun 20 2006, 12:41 AM
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#38
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Mages get an awesome amount of versatility for what they spend. The ability to summon spirits can cover for countless skills. @Cain: That's kindof true. The thing that makes mages really powerful, however, is to specialise in something which is innately versatile. It's like specialising with a gun that can also let you socialise and infiltrate stealthily. |
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Jun 20 2006, 01:20 AM
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#39
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I'd say the problem mages face is the heavy karma cost to improve their abilities. Initiating, learning new spells, binding foci, and improving their magic active skills.
I don't think Sams are that bad off though. 'Ware is cool ^^ and they do get to buy a bunch of skills that a mage with such a heavy drain on karma can ill afford to buy. Sure you can summon a spirit or cast a spell to offset the lack of skill, but that only goes so far, and that assumes you even know an appropriate spell. Depending on what your GM throws at you Sam can be the most effective characters in a game. If the Mages are dominating give them something more dangerous to worry about, like magical foes, and let the Sams do what they're best at. I also believe that a Sam can boost their skills with judicious use of 'ware to levels rivaling that of an adept with a smaller investment of BPs/karma/nuyen. Unless you're swamping your players with karma, magical characters shouldn't overbalance the game. Straight out of the box a Sam is more versatile and more effective than the magical types, who've had to sink a lot of BPs into being magical. That being said I do discourage too many spellcasters among my players, but at the moment I've the opposite problem... Most of my party are toting wired reflexes 2! |
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Jun 20 2006, 06:36 AM
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#40
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Well, even then, you get mages who specialize in certain kinds of magic. The dedicated conjurors, combat mages, and stealth mages are all totally different builds, and get rewarded heavily for it. The difference is that a generalist mage is more capable than a generalist mundane. If you get a mage who hasn't specialized in magic to some degree, you're going to end up with a fairly ineffective character. |
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Jun 20 2006, 02:54 PM
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#41
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Yes and no... Mages can initiate and take metamagics like centering which add to all magical abilities. They can buy power foci, which are remarkably cheap under this edition for what they do. Magic and Willpower are rolled for both conjuring and spellcasting, so a boost to either of them would be good. It is possible to get a fair bit by specialising, but you also lose a lot if you abandon aspects of magic which you could otherwise be fairly good at. It may just be that I value versatility, but I'd rather have a character who wins in most situations rather than oblitterating a few and struggling in others. @ornot: Mages have to pay increasing amounts of karma, yes. Sammies, however, have an even worse time as their upgrade procedure involves paying more than they did in the first place for gear they already have already, then paying a lot for whatever high-grade ware can fit in the tiny essence slot they opened-up.
Erm. Are you joking? You've never seen a well-made and well-played mage, have you? A mage could 'more versatile and more effective' a sammie's cyberarm up the sammie's ass and activate his cybergun.
When I said that magic was versatile, I meant it. They have to sink a lot of BPs into it, but they get so much in return that it's not funny. You can do many things only the most stealthy covert ops specialist could do just by astrally projecting. The sort of things that a clever shaman can do with spirits just boggles the mind. An air spirit can carry up-high removing the need for climbing skills, an appropriate spirit can conceal you which covers a lot of stealth (I've never seen a PC mage without invisibility either), an earth spirit can stand infront of you and fight for you, A beast spirit can be conjured to deal with animals (control them to attack their handlers or just to avoid the party), a water spirit can even control the weather ('removing the need' for meteorology skills :D). And yes, I too have seen the problem that everyone goes sammie. I once saw a team with a face, a sammie, a covert ops expert, and a mercenary all boasting very, very, low essences and very high initiatives. Whilst it's a good thing that not everyone's playing nigh-godlike mages, if they have no magical characters then it does mean that the GM can't throw a half-decent mage at the party without risking a TPK. |
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Jun 20 2006, 03:02 PM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
As a guy that's running a skillwire character I have to disagree with that. You can't get skill ratings as high with wires as you can with normal skills, you can't spend edge on wired skills, and those programs are expensive as hell (at least in games with a moderate to low income rate).
LOL |
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Jun 20 2006, 03:09 PM
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#43
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
However, you can't trace a sammie as easily as you can a mage. A. Magic is not that common. B. Using high Force anything leaves behind a nice bright trail. Whereas the sammie can go in, shoot up the place, walk out, and only have to worry about their face possibly being identified. A mage has to go and spend time to cover up their tracks both physically like the sammie, and astrally. |
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Jun 20 2006, 03:11 PM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
"A" is true, but to varying degrees depending on the campaign. What percentage of the population is awakened, and how that portion divides out among adepts, mages, and others is not specificed in SR4. It can be as common or uncommon as a GM wants.
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Jun 20 2006, 03:14 PM
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#45
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
True, but I always enjoyed having a character who's a jack-of-all-trades. And shines in some skills; the ones he learned the hard way. |
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Jun 20 2006, 03:19 PM
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#46
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it isn't fun. I've enjoyed the character a lot. It just isn't as useful as having actualy meat skills, and isn't as powerful as it seems at first.
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Jun 20 2006, 04:16 PM
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#47
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Agreed :)
But always better to have a sammie with the needed skill (even if he's only having a few points in it) than having noone with the skill ;) |
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Jun 20 2006, 04:19 PM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Not when the skill is "Naked Overweight Dancing."
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Jun 20 2006, 04:32 PM
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#49
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,579 Joined: 30-May 06 From: SoCal Member No.: 8,626 |
What if you have to infiltrate a Chipendales show? :rotfl: |
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Jun 20 2006, 04:39 PM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Then you'll probably want to avoid the overweight part unless you're Chris Farley dancing with Patrick Swayze.
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