 Give the sammies a little love..., where do they shine? |
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 Jun 20 2006, 05:41 PM
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#51
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046  |
Okay, the general feedback I've gotten seems to be: "Street Sams have their uses, and make good generalists, but there's nothing that they can accomplish (except maybe decking) that can't also be done by mages and adepts." With this in mind, I'm thinking about house-ruling away some of the things that require mages or adepts to overcome.
What does everybody think would happen if I made the critter power of regeneration work against both physical and magical damage. In other words, if they healed from the manabolt as easily as they healed from the assault rifle? |
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Jun 20 2006, 06:48 PM
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#52
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 8-March 06 Member No.: 8,344 |
Regeneration doesn't work against central nervous system damage, though, as referenced by the book (called shot to the head). While I dislike called shots, shouldn't a sammie breeze over that? After all a sammie will likely roll a ton more dice to shoot than the enemy rolls to dodge and if you've shot the critter into physical overflow the wound modifiers ought to make it easy prey for the called shot.
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Jun 20 2006, 07:08 PM
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#53
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
I don't think that getting the skills high is all that much of an issue. I suppose I can see the advantage of grabbing a bunch of skills 'naturally' though. When I said skill-monkey, I was thinking things like outdoors skills and nautical mechanic skills which are nice to have but are hardly critical. Even a rating 1 skillsoft gives a good dice pool when combined with an attribute, which can save the party or reveal useful information. That's what I mean by skill-monkey, having the right skill for the right job rather than being able to throw 20 dice to do something obscure. I'd usually be happy for the party to just have a medium-rated demolitions skillsoft... Better to have one than to have nobody with demolitions. I do see the advantage, however, of being able to spend edge on it so I might consider advising taking Demolitions 1 to the next Edge 8 guy I see someone make. @X-Kalibur: Good point that mages can trace mages, but there are other ways around it. If the mage summons a spirit to do it, summoning from far enough away not to arouse suspicion or soon enough in advance that his own signature has faded, then the only signature on the crime scene will be that odf the spirit. That may potentially lead to repurcussions if the spirit's bound and recognised on a later use, but not every time. Another option is to go for the high-drain but more-effective spells but cast them at low force. Facing 4 mooks, four low-force mannaballs will fade faster than 4 higher-force mannabolts and could equally-likely take the group out. Mages also have the option of using stun spells (sometimes referred to as 'sleep' spells) which are far less obtrusive than shooting a place up. That buys them the extra time they need to clear their signature, or they can just walk away and rely on the fact that no crime was comitted. If they really want someone dead then they can just slit their unconcious throat. The problem of astral signatures eventually goes away to some extent once they pick-up the Flexible Signature metamagic. Add a few more grades of initiation onto that and they reduce the duration that their sicnature stays for down significantly, not leaving any for lower-force magic. |
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Jun 20 2006, 07:13 PM
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#54
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That's what I meant by the fact that a mage has to specialize in magic. If they get into a situation where magic isn't quite as valueable, then they're just as hosed as anyone else. Drones, for example, can be a mage's nightmare. A hyperspecialized starting sam is looking at a minimum of 15 attack dice, far more than a starting mage can get under most circumstances. |
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Jun 20 2006, 07:17 PM
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#55
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I know it's just a house rule (and one that hasn't even been implemented yet) but I would have the tie between spirit and summoner show up on the crime's astral signature. Spirits are beefy enough without letting them be used as trace free assassins, burglars, etc. |
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Jun 20 2006, 07:25 PM
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#56
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
That certainly seems reasonable from a worldview perspective. You could even have the tie be stronger (ie, easier to track) if the spirit was bound, rather than merely summoned. |
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Jun 20 2006, 07:30 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
Hmm. Another option, actually, would be to allow a mage who gets enough assensing hits on a spirit's astral signature to then turn around and summon THAT SPIRIT, and use that as an avenue for finding out who summoned it. That depends a bit on how you think spirits work, though. Was that fire elemental summoned away from an independent existence to which it returned afterwards, or did the summoning CREATE the spirit out of th energy of the appropriate metaplane? And does it make a difference whether or not the spirit was Sapient?
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Jun 20 2006, 07:39 PM
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#58
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
...But that's already true. I'm not advocating making the sammie's damage potential any greater, only maybe making mages slightly less powerful for this one particular scenario. That said, I'd agree that called shots are exceptionally powerful. +4 DV (which would, on average, require 12 dice) in exchange for just giving up 4 dice is a no-brainer. Also, the way the rules are layed out it's still half-way abstracted and don't make sense to me. Say I've got a goon in 8/6 armor but no helmet - I have to choose between bypassing armor and upping damage, even though logically a head shot in that scenario would do both. |
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Jun 20 2006, 07:52 PM
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#59
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Nim: that's a good rule. I think if it comes up I'll use that instead of my option. It hasn't been needed yet, but players and GMs love to come up with crazy ideas, so I'm sure it'll happen eventually.
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Jun 20 2006, 08:05 PM
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#60
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
In that case your called shot to the head is a called shot to negate armor. Called shots come in a few varieties. One is bypassing armor, one is upping damage value, and one is for special effects. How each of those occur is up to the player and GM. Sometimes a called shot to up DV means you hit him in the head, but sometimes it might mean you got him square in the chest. A called shot to bypass armor may mean you hit him in the head, or it may mean you found a crease where his armor is thinner to allow for more mobility. That said though, my group doesn't use called shots except when thematically appropriate. The +4 DV one is never thematically appropriate, especially since it's just a way to turn lots of dice into even more damage than normal. Obviously YMMV, but we've ignored called shots for the most part in every game system we've played in the last 10 years and never regretted it. |
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Jun 20 2006, 08:06 PM
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#61
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
If you mean the idea about summoning the spirit the runners used and then expending a service to order it to tell you all about what happened...it's pretty tempting. It would have a MAJOR impact on the utility of spirits to runners, though. Bringing a spirit in on your run would be like involving an accomplice who you KNOW will instantly spill their guts if the other side finds them...and then leaving their comm ID at the scene of the crime. Mages would need to be a lot more proactive about cleaning up their traces - or else would have to expend services to order the spirits to clean up after themselves. If you decide to go there, you might want to rule that spirits that are still Bound can't be summoned by anyone else...or maybe give the summoning a threshold based on the strength of the current binding. That would make unbound spirits something you use mainly when you're not expecting opposition. |
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Jun 20 2006, 08:49 PM
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#62
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I would agree that the called shot to up DV seems broken, and are sufficiently represented by just getting lots of successes ("18 successes? you shot him right through the eye...") I don't find the rules for called shots to bypass armor to be unbalanced, since your giving up dice to reduce the target's soak roll by an equal amount of dice. There are times when bypassing doesn't make sense (no, you cant bypass the armor on the spirit's immunity - there is no weak spot that isn't covered), but most of the time it'll basically be a wash. |
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Jun 20 2006, 08:53 PM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I don't see a big problem with bypassign armor either, except when used to bypass hardened armor (perhaps from being inside a vehicle) or spirit armor (as you say, there are no weak spots). The rest of the time ignoring armor is usually fine.
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Jun 20 2006, 09:48 PM
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#64
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Actually, I don't have much of a problem with using it to bypass hardened armor, either. You're targeting a part of the vehicle that's not as well armored as the rest, be it a view slit, the tires, the vents for the engine or some other spot where it's just not as well protected.
I houseruled the -1 die for +1 DV thing out of existence. |
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Jun 20 2006, 10:28 PM
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#65
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I'm not talking about bypassing hardened armor to hurt the vehicle, but to hurt people inside. Someone gave an example of shooting someone in the back of an armored vehicle, which doesn't make a lot of sense given that there's no weak spots to find on a giant box of metal.
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Jun 20 2006, 10:46 PM
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#66
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
What I'd suggest, if you want to encourage sammies, is to make cyberlimbs cheaper (or more powerful by default, and cheaper to increase). Some people rate Wired Reflexes and the Smartlink as the epitomy of sammie gear, but really it's good for faces and covert ops too. Cyberlimbs are the epitomy of physical advancement through cyberware which is the sammie, often too obvious for faces and covert ops, so if you encourage them (particularly the obvious versions) by making them cheaper and more powerful then you have a clear push for sammies. |
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Jun 21 2006, 02:28 AM
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#67
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
There's plenty of spots that are weaker on a hardened vehicle, and they tend to be centered around the passenger compartment. Bulletproof glass simply isn't as tough as steel plate. Calling a shot to hit the driver is a lot more believeable than calling a shot to hit the distributor cap. |
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Jun 21 2006, 02:30 AM
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#68
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Reread the example.
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Jun 21 2006, 03:10 PM
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#69
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
As far as calling shots to bypass armor on vehicles, maybe we should just exercise more GM discretion on that. In an example where they're trying to shoot through the less-armored glass, the armor would logically drop some (maybe from 8 to 4 on the brinks truck), but wouldn't disappear altogether. If you try to bypass armor to hit people in a tank, the GM just says "No" and slaps you with a carp™.
(to Lilt): I agree with your statement in principle, but don't think I could make house rules for cyber-limbs without breaking a lot of other stuff and making character generation more complicated. Unless somebody else has good suggestions for cyberlimb house rules I'll just table that one until the appropriate supplemental (Arsenal?) comes out. |
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Jun 21 2006, 04:30 PM
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#70
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
What? Balance isn't that delicate. You could quite easily start obvious cyberlimb stats at 4s (rather than 3s) across the board and they'd become more worthwhile. Another good (practically nessecary) idea is to apply metatype stat mods to cyberlimbs. Otherwise trolls can't even buy cyberarms as strong as they are normally unless tey also get cybertorsos, which makes no sense. That's not broken and makes cyberlimbs worthwhile for the normally-stronger metatypes. It's not entierly nessecary, but you can also cut the price of them by 10 to 20% (particularly for obvious limbs). If you want for sammies to shine then make it so that they can. Waiting for arsenal is fine, but I would in no way expect that to solve anything. If you expect a book to put the aspect of the game it's based on ahead in the world, remember there'll be a magic book out at some point too. |
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Jun 21 2006, 05:05 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 555 Joined: 11-August 03 Member No.: 5,408 |
The easiest thing to do would to say cyberlimbs start at the users normal stats.
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Jun 21 2006, 05:36 PM
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#72
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
The houserule I use is that cyberlimbs have stats matching their users, except their strength is set to racial maximum. Strength is the only stat upgrade you can buy for cyberlimbs (to avoid insanity like the Agility-tweaked cyberarm gunner). If a character increases one of his other stats naturally, he requires an hour or so in a cybershop (or a couple of days occasionally tweaking at the limb settings with his commlink... I should really figure out an Extended Cybertechnology test for this) in order to "tune" the limb to balance it out with the rest of his body again, during which time he takes a -1 penalty per different stat point to any actions involving the limb (obviously, this would rarely be more than a -1).
Armoring cyberlimbs is something I haven't bothered with... it's too much of a pain in the ass under the current (lack of) rules. |
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Jun 21 2006, 08:53 PM
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#73
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
I did. Your example had nothing to do with your argument. In general, most vehicles with hardened armor aren't going to be solid boxes of metal; every vehicle with any armor is automatically hardened, so we're talking about mid-to-lightly armored passenger cars. Even on the high end, Citymasters still have window-slits, and even tanks have vulnerable spots. Saying "you can't call a shot to the passenger compartment of any vehicle with armor, because there's never any weak holes in a metal box" is a fallacy of the first order. If you want to make a logical argument, then I suggest: Rewrite the example. 8) |
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Jun 21 2006, 08:59 PM
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#74
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I never said "you can't call a shot to the passenger compartment of any vehicle with armor, because there's never any weak holes in a metal box" despite your attempts to make it look like I did by surrounding it in quotes.
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Jun 21 2006, 10:21 PM
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#75
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Bypassing that much armor on a seriously armored vehicle would slap on enough penalties that I'd start thinking about disallowing even a Long Shot to try for it, and tell the player to try shooting something a little more reasonable. |
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