You can't Damage a Node..., can you???? Options

[Samaels Ghost]

Cain's SR4 Node Record Sheet has a Condition Monitor for a Node. I was under the impression that nodes aren't damaged during hacking attempts but the OS or programs on the node can be Crashed (pg. 223). Can you wipe out a node completely by attacking it? That would make sense with Deus and Crash 2.0 but I'm not sure.

Also, there doesn't seem to be a distinction between IC and Agents except IC can jam open connections so are better for Cyber Combat. I am wrong? Why would you have Agents then?

[Jaid]

the difference between IC and agents is that agents must be subscribed to a persona to be activated, whereas IC can be activated by a node.

this is handy for reducing load when you don't need the defense up, but still having a defense available when you do.

personally, i also feel that IC applies to a separate loadout then agents (that is, IC counts against the node's active programs, whereas agents count against a persona's unless subscribed to a node specifically, in which case it must always be active).

but that's just how i rule it, personally.

[Samaels Ghost]

But IC can Track a Hacker to his node and hack back.

What's the difference between loading a persona with programs and loading a node with programs

[Jaid]

loading a persona with programs means someone has to be there to use/activate the programs.

that is, in order for a persona to run a program, you need a decker running the persona.

a node with a program loaded can run that program without any extra input it seems. such programs are specifically indicated to include analyse, IC, data bombs (i think) and encryption (i think). there is no indication that a node can run a program that requires active use, however, mainly passive use (for example, i have seen nothing to show that a node can use attack, black hammer, blackout, exploit, etc). so i would say you might also be able to have a node running scan, probably... not sure if much more than that. basically anything where it's pretty much just an on/off switch, or passive use (for example, a node cannot actively analyse anything, but analyse adds to it's passive defense against being exploited).

maybe you could even have it run armor or something, though i'm not sure at all what that would accomplish...

[Samaels Ghost]

But those programs loaded into a NODE and those loaded into a PERSONA both affect Response so there really isn't an important distinction, is there?

[Samaels Ghost]

And what about DAMAGING NODES? :(

[Cheops]

There is an important distinction because the node doesn't have any AI programming whereas IC and Agents do. That's why those are the same cost as Pilot for drones. They are all dog brains.

A persona represents a person so that person presumably has intelligence.

So programs that require active use wouldn't be useful for nodes since they can't actively use them.

As far as damaging nodes go I don't allow it except for crashing OS and Firewall.

But then my opinions on the Matrix and hacking seem to be wildly different from most others on this board.

[Teulisch]

I think it depends on the node.

we have multiple levels of technology here- at the low end, we have the PDA and the laptop. portable, and able to do what you need. Then there are 'desktop' machines- too big to carry around with you, and more powerfull. than you get Servers- designed to act as a standard node. At the high end we have mainframes, supercomputers, and SOTA experimental models.

Now, when you attack anything up to and including a desktop, you use standard commlink rules. the desktop is probably just the Trid in your apartment. this stuff is consumer level, and its vunerable to a lot of stuff.

When you get to servers, your dealing with a different level of OS. they have no real limit on space, so programs dont slow em down. but they have a specific bandwith, and slow down when they exceed that depending on the connection. You CAN damage a server, but you will need admin-level access and bypass the safety protocols against that kind of thing. probably treat the 'core' where the OS lives as a seperate node inside the server. Grey IC is common at this level.

at mainframes, like most corps have (a definite at the A level and above), you have a multiple-node system, with layers of security. Black IC is very likely, especialy in the 'core' node you would need to acess to crash the system.

For matrix topography, i would say its unlikely for a Corp to have more than one mainframe (unless one is public business, and the other is private offline research). the mainframe then links to a server at each office of the corp. each server links to a department computer for each department in that office... which then links to employee commlinks, printers, and office equipment. The department computers will only reach the server and the inside of the building. the server may or may not reach outside the building depending on what the business needs. It is possible that the matrix connection routes through another computer before it reaches the server, creating a chokepoint.

Building-level security will be run by the server, and it will send alarms to the mainframe and/or security corp, which dispatches the HTRT.

So, a hacker either has to log into the server (either directly or through the mainframe, depending on the company), then find the right department computer, and get his paydata, or he has to physicaly go to the computer he wants.

and lets not forget- if you go there physicaly, a sledgehammer is a good way to damage a node!

[Samaels Ghost]

So is there a node Condition Monitor?

[Samaels Ghost]

I do want to clarify that I do appriciate Teulisch's post and that I wasn't TRYING to be an jerk.

[hobgoblin]

nothing i have seen tells me that there is.

from what i can tell, there are only two states for a node, crashed/stopped or running. hmm, i dont know if i have seen the char sheet that cain made. or maybe i have it but didnt spot that bit...

[James McMurray]

I think he means Aaron's cheatsheet: http://pavao.org/shadowrun/cheatsheets/SR4Node.pdf.

[hobgoblin]

funny, i used said sheet and i didnt spot that it had a node damage track. strange...

i allso see that said sheet have it own entry for a "spider", complete with yet another damage track. very strange indeed.

i realy would love to see the reasoning behind that...

[Jaid]

spider=security rigger i presume.

presumably the sec rigger has a persona somewhere. the persona has a condition moniter.

also presumably, if the sec rigger is in VR of some kind, the rigger will also need his personal damage tracks for dealing with black IC.

there you go, reasoning behind having a condition monitor for spider (assuming the sheet is for GMs to use of course. if that part is for players, then it does indeed make no sense.)

[Samaels Ghost]

That does make sense except that the track is labeled "Node Damage Track". I may end up using it for a "Spider Persona Damage Track" instead.

I'm just curious now as to whether that was the intention....

THanks!

[hobgoblin]

yes, spider is a security rigger, but as the damage track is single file i have a feel that its supposed to be that users persona damage track, not some physical or stun damage track. it even have a small "8+(system/2)" entry under it...

the very strange part is that there is no reason to have a clearly labeled "node damage track" as a node cant take damage that way. it can only be crached with a crash action (p223).

hrmf, it may well be that its a combo sheet. that its supposed to handle both GM and player uses. but still, it should be labeled "persona damage track" not "node damage track".

[Samaels Ghost]

The question has been answered by Aaron himself
Here it is!!!