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Kagetenshi

Jun 28 2006, 02:33 AM

Post #101

Manus Celer Dei

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QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)

And the next person that says you dont really need to aim a shotgun using bird shot gets kicked in the nuts, because they have never fired a bird shot shotgun at a bird flying 15 or 20 yards away and watch as your wadding just misses and the bird continues on its way.

See, most people who say that are talking about targeting slow-moving ground objects like people.

~J

JongWK View Member Profile	Jun 28 2006, 02:34 AM Post #102
Shooting Target Group: Validating Posts: 1,618 Joined: 29-January 03 From: Montevideo, Uruguay. Member No.: 3,992	Guys, could you please move the rules discussion to a new thread?

Frag-o Delux

Jun 28 2006, 02:43 AM

Post #103

Running Target

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Jun 27 2006, 09:05 PM)

And the next person that says you dont really need to aim a shotgun using bird shot gets kicked in the nuts, because they have never fired a bird shot shotgun at a bird flying 15 or 20 yards away and watch as your wadding just misses and the bird continues on its way.

See, most people who say that are talking about targeting slow-moving ground objects like people.

~J

And Ill still say they are full of shit. If you have ever seen autopsy photos of shot gun victims, the shot still stays in an amazingly tight grouping. Its not like the person only gets hit with 4 or 5 of the shot pellets and they die, they take it all. Anyone grazed by a shot load takes very little damage comparativly.

Domino

Jun 28 2006, 02:47 AM

Post #104

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)

QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jun 27 2006, 09:33 PM)

QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Jun 27 2006, 09:05 PM)

And the next person that says you dont really need to aim a shotgun using bird shot gets kicked in the nuts, because they have never fired a bird shot shotgun at a bird flying 15 or 20 yards away and watch as your wadding just misses and the bird continues on its way.

See, most people who say that are talking about targeting slow-moving ground objects like people.

~J

And Ill still say they are full of shit. If you have ever seen autopsy photos of shot gun victims, the shot still stays in an amazingly tight grouping. Its not like the person only gets hit with 4 or 5 of the shot pellets and they die, they take it all. Anyone grazed by a shot load takes very little damage comparativly.

Pay no attention to this fragged up fragger.

James McMurray

Jun 28 2006, 03:03 AM

Post #105

Great Dragon

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QUOTE

No. It's a roleplaying game, so it has mechanics for actual roleplay. I know that roleplay is kinda a foreign concept for some, but trust me, it works.

Every game we've talked about here is a roleplaying game. Touting that as a strength of Savage Worlds, and following it with an insult just shows that you're running out of material fast.

QUOTE

Not true. Since Savage Worlds is a multi-die system, the exact amout of improvement created by a +1 vs a die increase depends on the die used. So, the edge is more beneficial at both low and high levels.

I just went with +1 being equal to 1 on a d8, in actuality:

d8 odds of getting a 4: 62.5%
d8+1 odds of getting a 4: 75% (difference of 12.5%, as I said)
d8+2 odds of getting a 4: 87.5% (25% difference)

d10 odds of getting a 4: 70%
d10+1 odds of getting a 4: 80% (difference of 10%)
d10+2 odds of getting a 4: 90% (20% difference)

d12 odds of getting a 4: 75%
d12+1 odds of getting a 4: 83.33% (difference of 8.33%)
d12+2 odds of getting a 4: 91.67% (16.67% difference)

As you can see, the higher the die goes, the lower the difference a +1 makes. Someone who has never seen anything but a fist and elevated themselves to higher than olympic class in boxing in their life would, by the rules, be able to fight with every single melee weapon known to man at an olympic level. If I don't decide to buy Deadlands for my space travel or medieval games then he'll also be tearing his way through kungfu tournaments.

QUOTE

1 bonus point != 1 skill raise.

The rules:

QUOTE

For 1 point you can:
* Gain another skill point

QUOTE

His general *firearm* abilities will be that good, yes.

He has olympic + 2 skill in rifles, just like our earlier melee guy. That means he's an olympic class blowgun and bow expert as well. Unless you opt to apply some GM Fiat to him and force him to not use the base Shooting skill as it's laid out in the rules.

QUOTE

You obviously haven't trained with many melee weapons or in martial arts, so let me explain. Once you've started to develop skill in any melee art, you can pick up other arts much faster than before. Even if they're based on opposing principles: all fighting arts are based on body mechanics, and there are only so many effective ways to move. The question isn't in which moves are used; it's in how it uses those moves. Being super-skilled in swordsmanship but totally incompetent with a club is not how things happen; in the real world, a person's overall fighting ability tends to fall within a fairly narrow range.

You don't have to explain anything. If you were reading the thread instead of jumping forward to your chance to try and defend your game you'd know that the discussion has already happened.

QUOTE

Like you don't need to buy Cannon Comanion to do the same thing in Shadowrun?

Cannon Companion, while an addon, is just an addon. Having to buy Deadlands (a campaign book) to get the same result is totally different. It's also an almost complete waste of money if my group doesn't want to combine the old west with the supernatural. But, because it's a poorly placed patch, if I want the upgrade I have to buy the whole system.

QUOTE

Or whatever the advanced combat book is going to be for SR4

Oh, forget that last paragraph. I misunderstood. Apparently Deadlands is Savage World's advanced combat book. :please:

QUOTE

Reread the Trappings rules.

You mean the trappings for powers? That's the only place trappings are mentioned in the quick start rules. Since I already don't like those rules, I won't be spending any money on the actual rulebooks. If you'd like to buy me a copy, I'll happily run a few test sessions with my group. If we like it I'll pay you back double, and buy every other Savage Worlds supplement as well. Email me if you think your game is up to the challenge.

QUOTE

None of the above. Unlike the aforementioned rules, Savage Worlds actually works.

So then you do let your PCs that aren't in Deadlands win Kungfu tournaments? You let them pick up any weapon, despite their background, and use their full fighting skill with it. Okely dokely. If that's your definition of works then it won't surprise me at all when you opt not to take the challenge.

QUOTE

stuff about simplicity

Hence the "from what I've seen."

QUOTE

Even within that, Rolemaster is not nearly as realistic as other systems. GURPS, for example, is less-complex and [by default] much more realistic than Chartmaster. FATAL is so complex as to make Rolemaster look like Wushu; and it's probably the least-realistic game out there. (It's so bad, in fact, it's damn near impossible to suspend disbelief.) The original James Bond game is more realistic than Shadowrun by a large margin, but it's somewhat less complex. For that matter, Shadowrun has never tried to be a "realistic" system; it's famed for being one of the early abstract systems.

Never played GURPS. Never head anything good about it, so didn't bother. I've never had problems with the realism level of Rolemaster. Your calling it Chartmaster speaks to your bias, but that's cool. Unlike a certain Savage Worlds fanatic, I don't feel the need to tout my favorite system all up and down other gaming boards. :)

QUOTE

Once you've gotten a bit of experience with other game systems, you'll see exactly what I mean. You might like a more realistic style of game, which is fine; but don't assume that because a game is less complex, that it is automatically less realistic. Complexity != Realism.

1) I've played a crapload of game systems: WoD, nWoD, ME WoD, D&D (every version), RIFTs, Role/Spacemaster, Tunnels and Trolls, some Christian game I can't remember the name of (you cast spells by reciting scripture), Amber diceless, many d20 systems, Warhammer FRPG, Hackmaster, some Dune game, Legend of the Five rings (multiple editions), Marvel Super Heroes, and Shadowrun to name the ones that jump to my mind right now. I've played games that some guy at a Con made up (some were good, most sucked).

EDIT: The fact that I don't like your pet doesn't mean I lack experience, it just means that I don't like it, and feel that what I have seen is poorly made.

Your false assumptions about other people are showing themselves again.

2) I didn't say realism = complexity. I said the two are often tied together. Nice try though. Perhaps you'd like to stick to what's said?

QUOTE

Firearms are just as complicated. Firing a pistol has completely different skills then long arms, not to mention a bow.

You left out blowgun. :)

mfb View Member Profile	Jun 28 2006, 03:19 AM Post #106
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	continue this in another thread.

Frag-o Delux

Jun 28 2006, 03:22 AM

Post #107

Running Target

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QUOTE (James McMurray)

QUOTE

Firearms are just as complicated. Firing a pistol has completely different skills then long arms, not to mention a bow.

You left out blowgun. :)

Silly me, I was thinking blow gun the entire time I was typing my rant. I guess I got ahead of myself and forgot it. And that reminds me, I need to get back to the gun shop, my new iron sights are finally on my blow gun and the 30 power scope. I went with thermo instead of low light.

mfb

Jun 28 2006, 03:23 AM

Post #108

Immortal Elf

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QUOTE (mfb @ Jun 27 2006, 10:19 PM)

continue this in another thread.

Cain

Jun 28 2006, 05:51 AM

Post #109

Grand Master of Run-Fu

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QUOTE

Every game we've talked about here is a roleplaying game. Touting that as a strength of Savage Worlds, and following it with an insult

Not an insult, a joke. Note the use of a smiley? You *do* know what a joke is, right?
;)

QUOTE

As you can see, the higher the die goes, the lower the difference a +1 makes. Someone who has never seen anything but a fist and elevated themselves to higher than olympic class in boxing in their life would, by the rules, be able to fight with every single melee weapon known to man at an olympic level.

Nice try to twist the statistics. Actually, while the relative difference might be smaller, your own numbers show that the character does become more effective. A slowdown at the top would represent a curve of diminishing returns, which is also realistic, and which doesn't happen in SR4. It does happen to a degree in SR3, and many other systems.

QUOTE

For 1 point you can:
* Gain another skill point

Again, 1 point != 1 Skill increase. You do realize that sometimes it takes more than one point to raise a stat in a game, right? 8)

QUOTE

Cannon Companion, while an addon, is just an addon. Having to buy Deadlands (a campaign book) to get the same result is totally different.

Actually, it's not. Savage Worlds is a generic system. In GURPS and d20, you often will find that certain rules are clustered in certain setting books. WOD and a ton of White Wolf books did exactly the same thing. Shadowrun, being setting-specific, only has one campaign setting to sell. Also, Deadlands is not a campaign book; it's a setting book. No adventures are included. The other Savage World plot point books, however, are campaign books: they all contain a full campaign, complete with world and adventures.

QUOTE

So then you do let your PCs that aren't in Deadlands win Kungfu tournaments? You let them pick up any weapon, despite their background, and use their full fighting skill with it.

Considering that I've never run a setting for which kung-fu tournaments was appropriate, it's never come up. At any event, if their fighting skill is low, there's really no problem; and if their fighting skill is high, they've always got edges in their favorite weapons. So, their "full fighting skill" != "full fighting effectiveness".

QUOTE

1) I've played a crapload of game systems:....

I can see that you've played a con game or two, but I doubt that you're even old enough to have played "every version" of D&D; I can recall playing this game called "Chainmail". I've played just about each and every one of those, with monthlong campaigns in many; you've played it "once at a con". If you only own ten or so different rule systems, then you still have very little exposure to what's out there. Including only what's on my shelves at the moment (and excluding what's in storage, loaned out, or permanently lost) I've got over fifty different *systems*, not just variants.

QUOTE

The fact that I don't like your pet doesn't mean I lack experience, it just means that I don't like it, and feel that what I have seen is poorly made.

I'm not arguing the fact that you don't like it; you wouldn't like anything I do, no matter how superior it is shown to be. You have the right to dislike anything, even though it's better. ;)

What I *am* arguing is the fact that a "simpler" approach is not necessarily less realistic than an overly complex and crunchy one. They're not even remotely tied together. I've seen just as many rules-heavy, totally-unrealistic systems out there as I've seen "realistic" lighter systems. Realism is such a subjective term; what people end up meaning by "realistic" is that it comes close to their [generally mistaken] view of biology or physics. When you see systems that are actually realistic-- there's one written by a friend of mine, a certified instructor in multiple martial arts, that comes to mind-- you often see something totally different. There weren't dozens of rules for dozens of rules. I wish I still had my copy, it was pretty interesting.

QUOTE

Try comparing weapons that are reasonably the same, but really different. Like a two handed sword, like a claymore and a 2 handed long axe. Its basically a crushing weapon and really long. But in the details they are nothing alike. Its at higher levels, the finese to make yourself a world class fighter with that weapon is in the details. Details you can only learn with using that weapon. But with that rule, I can master a Claymore but still keep the mastery of the axe.

That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. At a general level, you're going to be pretty equal with a lot of similar weapons. If you've got a particular focus, then it'd be represented by buying certain edges, as opposed to an increase in the general skill.

mfb

Jun 28 2006, 06:16 AM

Post #110

Immortal Elf

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QUOTE (mfb @ Jun 27 2006, 10:23 PM)

QUOTE (mfb @ Jun 27 2006, 10:19 PM)

continue this in another thread.

PlatonicPimp View Member Profile	Jun 30 2006, 02:58 AM Post #111
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320	To maybe get things back on topic, if it's not issues at wizkids, what at fanpro is the gorram HOLDUP? They're about a year behind on publishing new SR material.

SL James View Member Profile	Jun 30 2006, 05:04 AM Post #112
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	How do you figure? They're moving on at a pace as to be expected.

nezumi View Member Profile	Jun 30 2006, 03:46 PM Post #113
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760	I'd prefer late and quality than early and broken. Take your time FanPro. I'm not in a rush.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Jun 30 2006, 04:05 PM Post #114
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	If they want to sell books like hotcakes, comparable percentage-wise to WotC, they should follow the WotC model. 20% broken, 20% underpowered but flavorful, and 60% fine to use as is in a standard power level campaign. no, I don't mean they'll get as many sales as WotC, only that it could increase their market share and up sales. WotC's model makes books valuable to all campaign styles, but requires house rules if you want to make a full buffet using everything in all the books (which even WotC doesn't recommend).

Kagetenshi

Jun 30 2006, 04:22 PM

Post #115

Manus Celer Dei

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QUOTE (James McMurray)

If they want to sell books like hotcakes, comparable percentage-wise to WotC*, they should follow the WotC model.

Far as I can tell, the WotC model is "be synonymous with RPG for casual and non-players".

~J

mfb View Member Profile	Jun 30 2006, 05:39 PM Post #116
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	yeah, but they maintain that synonymity. laurels get dry and pokey if you rest on them too long; WotC, whatever else you can say about them, at least refreshes their laurels regularly.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jun 30 2006, 05:48 PM Post #117
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Certainly, but the method for refreshing the laurels is not necessarily something that will work for creating some. ~J

mfb View Member Profile	Jun 30 2006, 05:50 PM Post #118
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	i can agree with that.

Brahm View Member Profile	Jun 30 2006, 06:05 PM Post #119
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006	I think it took nearly 2 years (around 20 months or something) for WotC to get out the first full set of "Xxxx & Xxxx" splat books. Fanpro isn't going to match that though. Fanpro is a bit behind what SR3's schedule was, at this point. To keep up to that Street Magic would have had to come out in March or April. However one of the freelancers has mentioned that they are actually trying to coordinate the books, planning out what is going to go in what to avoid overlap and retconning of rules. Which is a damn good thing and worth a bit of a wait for the first book if the pull it off. I suspect that in the end they'll get them out a bit faster than SR3. P.S. WotC hasn't fully avoided that. Some Feats and such with the exact same name and everything appear in multiples with material differences between the incarnations. It's more than a little wonky.

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