 Wizkids having Problems?, News... |
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 Jun 20 2006, 07:40 AM
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#26
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Prime Runner  Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51  |
They haven't and aren't. They're doing scenario packs for the MechWarrior: Dark Ages game. |
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Jun 20 2006, 07:43 AM
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#27
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Spectaculiarily popular in that it won the 2003 Origins Gamer's Choice award. Just some perspective. 8)
Having played it enough times, I can tell you that it's as loaded with tactical options as any edition of Shadowrun, and runs substantially faster than anything else on the market. Surprisingly enough, it's neither "rules lite" nor "beer and pretzels" quality; after being introduced to Wushu, I'd have to give that the prize.
AFAIK, this is correct. Mechwarrior is the RPG, and Classic BT is the miniature game. It's worth repeating that the different rights for the same IP can be held by different people: Wizkids has the Shadowrun miniature and novel rights, while Fanpro has the RPG, and FASA Interactive/Microsoft has the rights to the video game. I have no idea who holds the movie rights. |
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Jun 20 2006, 07:57 AM
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#28
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
MechWarrior was the name of the [FASA-published] RPG before WizKids released the MechWarrior: Dark Ages clix game, and for branding issues FanPro renamed the MechWarrior RPG into the Classic BattleTech RPG, which will still be part of the big CBT re-launch coming in 2006/2007.
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Jun 20 2006, 12:39 PM
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#29
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
With a side of perspective: Not only was that a couple of years ago, but those awards are voted upon by workers in the gaming industry, not actual people. ;) So trying to connect that with doing "exceptionally well", by which I assume you mean sales to the general public, is rather dubious. EDIT Well that isn't entirely accurate. The Gamer's Choice section of the awards are nominated by said non-people, and then voted on based off of email address. Which is to say voted on by internet, by people that know about the voting. So, um, yeah. It is one step closer to reality, and two steps sideways. Of course I don't know what their sales are of Savage World based RPGs. I don't even know personally if the game system is any good or particularly suited to Shadowrun. Never played it. I just know that I haven't seen people requesting Savage World players/groups on the local FLGS cork bulletin board, nor have I seen game times for it on their public calendar whiteboard. Not even Deadlands, oddly enough. So I'm inclined to call spectacular hyperbole on your assessment of it's popularity. :grinbig: |
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Jun 20 2006, 01:16 PM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You mean like World of Darkness in 2004 (despite it being on the decline). Or Angel winning best Roleplaying game 2003, despite the fact that the game barely exists anymore, and is in fact almost 100% dead? Or Lord of the Rings with best roleplaying game in 2002, despite the fact that the game is now defunct? An award from 2 years ago doesn't mean squat now. Just some perspective... |
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Jun 20 2006, 01:20 PM
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#31
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Actually 2 years ago, because they are numbered for the year before they are awarded. The ones that will be awarded shortly are the "2005" awards. But pretty much. |
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Jun 20 2006, 01:24 PM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Edited. It just makes the angel reference even more appropriate, since it won the same year as SW. :)
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Jun 20 2006, 01:41 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I just read a few reviews and I'm not sure that I could talk anyone I know into playing a game where your skill at boxing is always the same as your skill with Iron Fan, Kung Fu, Fencing, and any other melee weapon or weaponless form. Or your skill in shooting a holdout pistol is always the same as your skill with a rocket launcher, blowgun, slingshot, and starfighter nose mounted ion cannon.
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Jun 20 2006, 02:54 PM
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#34
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Indeed. It's a solid game for what it is, but I have no idea what Cain is talking about when he says it isn't "rules lite".
~J |
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Jun 20 2006, 05:12 PM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
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Jun 20 2006, 08:28 PM
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#36
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Correction: Angel was a supplement for Eden Studio's Cinematic Unisystem line, and that's still going strong. You're not comparing a game line, you're comparing one specific splatbook.
I thought I'd have that same problem, but then I tried it. In actuality, this doesn't happen a whole hell of a lot, because no character ever carries an iron fan, rapier, broadsword, halberd, brass knuckles, and tactical baton all at the same time. Players tend to stick with their one or two favorite weapons. What the rules do help with is Jackie Chan-style wild action, where you're grabbing anything you can find. The abstraction in weaponless combat isn't any worse than any system that only has a generic "unarmed combat" skill in the base book; you need to look up Deadlands:Reloaded for advanced martial arts styles.
Savage Worlds is lighter than any version of Shadowrun, but in comparison to the systems that are advertised as "Rules Lite", it definitely falls on the mid-to-high crunch side. For example, Capes and Wushu are extremely low crunch. Capes doesn't even have character creation as we understand it, and Wushu's entire core rulebook is about 14 pages long. Everway, one of my favorite games that no one has ever heard of, is also light enough to make Savage Worlds look like it's super-crunchy. Shadowrun itself is somewhat less crunchy than systems like HERO or GURPS, but it's definitely more crunchy than WoD, Cinematic Uni, TriStat, or so on. Basically, Shadowrun tends to fall on the high-crunch side of things, Savage Worlds I'd classify as mid-crunch, and Wushu as low-crunch. Savage Worlds might be light in relation to Shadowrun, but so are most games out there; this doesn't make Savage Worlds rules-light. |
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Jun 20 2006, 08:41 PM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
No, I'm comparing "best RPG" to "best RPG." Angel won "Best RPG." It did not win "Best splatbook." As the "best RPG" of 2003, it is, by your reckoning, spectacularly popular. This despite the fact that it is all but dead.
Ummm, yeah it is. "Unarmed combat" is much more focused than "fighting." Every character on a savage worlds planet is Jackie Chan to some extent. That doesn't sit well with me. Obviously YMMV, but I'd house rule the hell out of it, because it's a huge flaw in a system IMO. |
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Jun 20 2006, 10:44 PM
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#38
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Angel was certainly a core book, not a supplement; it had all the Unisystem rules necessary to play the game, just like the Buffy RPG did, just like Conspiracy X does, just like All Flesh Must be Eaten does.
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Jun 21 2006, 12:40 AM
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#39
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Man, that's too bad. :( |
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Jun 21 2006, 01:37 AM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 18-June 06 Member No.: 8,734 |
Is there a list of the Shadowrun novels that have been published since WizKids/FanPro took over the game from FASA?
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Jun 21 2006, 03:19 AM
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#41
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
It never really comes up, since no one switches out from broadswords to rapiers to halberds throughout the course of one combat. The best way of thinking about it is this: there's no silly non-proficiency penalty. You can buy Edges to represent your specialization with particular weapons, but you don't have to track different penalites for using different weapons.
That's their business model. They put out each setting as a "separate RPG", even though they all follow the same rules. Really, you could combine Buffy and Angel into one RPG without effort. It would be the same thing if SJGames put out a full set of the GURPS rules with each supplement. I think several of the GoO games are also like this: they're still the same Tri-Stat RPG, even though they run under different settings.
IIRC, it's only the three by Kenson. Born to Run, Posion Agendas, and Fallen Angels. |
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Jun 21 2006, 03:21 AM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Having difficulty using a weapon I've never seen before doesn't sound silly to me.
Doesn't change the fact that it won best RPG and is not spectacularly popular. Keep trying. :) |
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Jun 21 2006, 05:08 AM
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#43
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Not "never seen before". It's more like assuming that you've had a generalized training, instead of a specific one. Sure, the zweihander guy probably doesn't know how to use a set of nunchucks; but since typical fantasy settings wouldn't include both zweihanders and nunchucks, it's not an issue. You just say that "These are the common weapons in this setting, and anyone with basic training is familiar with all of them." I've never actually seen a real sniper rifle before, but that doesn't mean that I'd be any more incompetent with it than I would be with the rifles I have seen. I've also picked up quite a few hand weapons over the years, and they're not that difficult to get the basics for. I can't see rationally penalizing someone for using a shinai when they can handle a katana, even though most systems would classify a shinai as a club and a katana as a sword. Similarily, once you've learned to handle one polearm, you can pretty much handle everything else in it's class: there's not much difference between a glaive, a halberd, and a lochaber, they're all chopping polearms. A naginata, spear, and pike are all primarily poking-style polearms, and the differences won't slow you down noticeably. Savage Worlds handles this as an abstraction. It makes things much easier. You then bring the realism in by simply restricting the weapons availiable. That way, the polearm guy isn't equally skilled with a lightsaber, since the lightsaber doesn't exist. It also becomes much easier to make a combat generalist, which both discourages hyperspecialization while still allowing specialties and tons of character flexibility.
It also didn't win a popularity award, it won a critical choice award. It's entirely possible (and commonplace) for something to win critical acclaim, yet not be popular in the slightest. Just look at the reviews for most fine-art movies. Savage Worlds won a Gamer's Choice award. IIRC, so did the Shadowrun Supplemental; I remember voting for Adam that particular year. So, the Origins Gamer's Choice awards are strictly based on popularity among gamers. You're not realistically suggesting that Adam's work is substandard, "all but dead", or otherwise unpopular? He puts out some of the best fan-based Shadowrun material in existence! |
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Jun 21 2006, 05:24 AM
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#44
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Target Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 23-May 06 From: California Free State Member No.: 8,597 |
There's also Drops of Corruption by JM Hardy. |
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Jun 21 2006, 05:40 AM
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#45
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The problem is that you do run into weapons you've never used before. I recently finished a game of Tour of Darkness (Unknown Armies, using the Savage Worlds rules) in which our characters had been given basic military training—M16, M1911, grenade, self-defense. We didn't have any grenadiers amongst the PCs.
My character picked up a rocket launcher and a grenade launcher over the course of the game, and was mysteriously able to use them at a high level of proficiency. Likewise, another PC picked up a sword and suddenly *poof* their basic unarmed-and-survival-knife training swells to include swords. ~J |
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Jun 21 2006, 06:36 AM
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#46
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
You'll have to refresh my memory, but IIRC Tour of Darkness tends to have you playing specops in Vietnam, the precursors of the modern-day Green Berets. They'd be familiarized with all common weapons, which would include RPG launchers. Standard grenade launchers have been a part of basic training since their introduction in WW2; theres an entertaining tale about them in Neal Stephenson's book Cryptonomicon.
As for swords, there's surprisingly little difference between a long knife and a short sword. What's more, no one has "never seen a sword before", and most people can bring themselves up to a decent degree of proficiency with one in short order. My experience from watching total SCA newbies pick up a sword for the first time in their lives indicates that they'll develop skill equal to their previous weapon training within less than ten nimutes, and sometimes it's nearly-instant. In any event, it makes no sense that someone would be trained in only one weapon, and would be incompetent in every other one. Someone trained in fencing can pick up any one of a number of one-handed blades, and do just fine. After messing around with a lot of LARPs, I find that applying nonproficency limits are just adding unnecessary bookkeeping. You're better off rewarding a specialization, which SW does semisolidly through the use of the "Trademark Weapon" edge. You can also use the Advanced Martial Arts rules from Deadlands: Reloaded if you want some more specifics in that area. |
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Jun 21 2006, 06:46 AM
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#47
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Tour of Darkness has you playing soldiers in Vietnam. Specops are certainly in the range of possibility, but we happened to be two fresh draftees and an enlistee who'd made it as far as PFC.
~J |
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Jun 21 2006, 06:56 AM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
basic military training includes, at least nowadays, introductory courses to grenades, grenade launchers, anti-tank weapons, and machine guns. i would be surprised if the same were not true in the 60s and 70s. as for learning them at a high level of proficiency... honestly, a lot of that stuff is so dead simple that there's simply not much higher you can go than 'proficient'. it doesn't take much practice to become an artist with a grenade launcher, especially if you've already got a basic proficiency with other firearms. |
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Jun 21 2006, 09:39 AM
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#49
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
After doing a quick bit of research, apparently basic bazooka training was part of standard Army basic as early as the 50's. As I said, basic grenade launchers were taught in WW2. So, being proficient in the use of either is to be expected in a soldier of that era. Also, I don't own the book, but I seem to recall that the backflap makes a big deal about the "Phoenix Program", some sort of super-secret specops deal. I was under the impression that this was a big part of the plot point campaign. But since I haven't played it, would you be willing to explain? |
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Jun 21 2006, 09:43 AM
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#50
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
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