 Spirit Possession question, but I was here first! |
  |
 Jun 20 2006, 12:42 AM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 17-June 04 Member No.: 6,409  |
I'm running Queen Euphoria and one of the PCs has a bound free spirit. Said bound free spirit was ordered to use its Possession power on Euphoria to keep her ot of trouble, and from whining, while the runners babyst her the first weekend. I see a problem coming if the spirit doesn't leave Euphoria.
Can the insect spirit possess the same body? Does it force the free spirit out? does it possess both the free spirit and Euphoria? Something else? |
 |
 
|
|
Jun 20 2006, 12:45 AM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Have the insect shaman banish/disrupt the spirit first.
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 20 2006, 12:51 AM
Post
#3
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 17-June 04 Member No.: 6,409 |
Thanks, that sounds like a good hand wave type of thin. In reality the Free spirit has double digit Force and double digit Spirit energy, so the reality might prove difficult. If nothing else, the hand wave might instill some fear into the party. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 20 2006, 01:00 AM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Well, if you want to be evil about it, the insect shaman could successfully summon the queen, the queen spirit and the free spirit fight, and the queen rips the free spirit to shreds (disruption).
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 20 2006, 01:16 AM
Post
#5
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 17-June 04 Member No.: 6,409 |
That is unlikely as the Queen has a stated force of 5 and the Free Spirit has at least F10 and SE 10 giving it an effective Force of 20. That is why I said it was unlikely to happen.
I see one option of increasing the Queens force enough to defeat the FS. However, the scenario says the queen is helpless and vulnerable while incubating in Euphoria. Another solution is hat Euphoria comes out of the adventure whole. The best solution is trying to get the player/PC to order the spirit out of Euphoria in between kidnappings while it looks like the adventure is over. It still leaves the question of how many beings can possess a form? As long as the challenger defeats the strongest/controlling being, they may all pile in? Defeat boots out all but the owner of the body (if they were present)? Other? |
|
|
|
|
Jun 20 2006, 01:46 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
A force 10 bound spirit? Well thats your mistake. Your player got acess to a force 10 conjuring libary, and a force 10 circle, and finally managed to pull a tn of 20 out? I suppose...
Either way, its feasable that the shamen kicks your spirits ass out after cunjuring the queen. Or prehaps use some watcher pack attacks? Or heck, just stun guns the heck out of Euphoria? Always consider your APL (avg power level) when looking at written modules. A force 10 bound spirit brings that number up a pretty big jump. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 20 2006, 01:59 AM
Post
#7
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 17-June 04 Member No.: 6,409 |
Ummm, no. It was a Force 3, newly gone free spirit with a spirit energy of one. The Pc has fed it karma and when it got the Wealth power uses the proceeds to buy karma for it. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 20 2006, 02:39 AM
Post
#8
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 13-April 06 Member No.: 8,459 |
I don't think it works like that . . . Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't particularly remember seeing a rule where you could trade in money for karma during gameplay. Whatever way that does work (or doesn't), it's seems ridiculously broken . . . |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 20 2006, 05:39 PM
Post
#9
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 573 Joined: 23-July 03 From: outside America Member No.: 5,015 |
Cash for Karma and Karma for Cash are something I've been familiar with since starting playing SR, but I am not sure if I have ever read it in canon. It's so that the mage can get rid of unwanted nuyen to buy more spells and skills (if not saving for foci) and so the rigger can dispose of karma in favour of more nuyen. It's something like giving 5000 :nuyen: gives you 1kp and every 1kp you give away gives you 500 :nuyen: . NSRCG has it implemented. In plot terms you can represent it by the character going out and spending his hard earned cash on food for the homeless, perhaps bribing his instructor with extra funds (thus winning him a bit more karma to spend on the skill) etc etc. So if you have a free spirit that barfs up a chunk of gold once a month you can "reward" it with karma generated by spending that gold. People might wonder where you got it from. They might assence it and try and track down your golden goose. If you're looking to feed your pet FS karma though why not just tell it to learn Conjure Food 10 and send it to Africa whenever you sleep? As for Euphoria - perhaps there are wards around where she's being kept possessed and the FS cannot pass through them. For example, there's one around her toilet and she's desperate to go, so the FS decides it will deposess her and jump back in as soon as she's finished and steps out. Additionally, since FSs take no drain from Sorcery they are undepletable spellcasting batteries. Any player that asks his FS for Increase Reflexes 10 on the basis that the FS won't need to resist 20 Deadly Naval drain (or whatever it works out as) might end up with Parkinson's, but a mage that just uses his FS to cast every Heal (with the LOS modifier of course) for him is tolerable. So the guy who's bound the FS gets separated from the rest of the group and takes some Stun and regular damage. He needs healing fast. He chants the name of his FS three times and orders an extra-value heal and some fries. Its job done, the FS is told to return to Euphoria. Queue the music
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 20 2006, 05:52 PM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 626 Joined: 1-March 04 Member No.: 6,112 |
If the group is powerful enough to summon and bind Free Spirits of that caliber, then they are powerful enough to break Queen Euphoria. Accept it, let them legitimately stomp all over it, and move on to something more challenging, like Imago or Harlequin or something.
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 20 2006, 06:56 PM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
Or Shutdown.
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 21 2006, 02:29 AM
Post
#12
|
|||||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 17-June 04 Member No.: 6,409 |
A rating 4 Astral Quest for a True Name and a Conjuring 4 test. What is so difficult about that?
In addition to what Bodak said, characters can give karma to free spirits, that is in fact the only way they can get karma, by bargaining for it. So why is it so hard to understand paying npcs for karma? Or using the money generated by the Wealth power to fund the activity? It also generates roleplaying opportunityies as the PCs help carry out the transactions and the problems that ensue. In regard to the original question, I do not know the answer. In the game, I am going to go on to another run(s) until the spirit leaves Euphoria, and then return to the second part of the adventure following the second abduction. :sarcasm: Thanks for trying to pick apart my characters instead of trying to answer the question. :sarcasm: Not quite thread crapping, but I'm sure there is another derogatory term for it. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jun 21 2006, 03:06 AM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I''m going to agree with Toptomcat here. From now on your team shall be known as The Kirks because they won the unwinable game.
There is way way that Euphoria can be invested while possessed. The process takes many hours (if not days) so it isn't just a matter of the Queen shredding the Free Spirit. The Free Spirit can attack the Queen before it even has a foothold on our planes. Likewise, at that force the shaman isn't likely to disrupt it. As for the Cash for Karma issue it is quite fair. Cash for Karma is an actual rule. It's in the SR3 Companion, I believe. I like to think that there is a network of Karma brokers made up mostly of Free Spirits of various types. Still, using the wealth power this way is murder. I would actually make it very difficult for a PC to profit from the wealth power by invoking market discrimination. Wealth's products are precious minerals and similar materials. You can't produce electronic nuyen or real paper scrip out of thin air. You have to liquidate those minerals somehow. The problem is that precious minerals are precious because they are rare and impossible produce artificially. As such, the Wealth Power will have a detrimental effect on the market if the market doesn't discriminate agaisnt it. Today, artifical diamonds are other artificial gemstones are not worth as much as their natural counterparts because of this. Detecting the product of Wealth will be easy. Wealth will produce things that are too perfect. Gemstones will be literally flawless. Minerals will contain no contaminents. These 100% perfect minerals will be worth much less than there real and flawed counterparts. Flooding the market will only make them less valuable. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 21 2006, 03:13 AM
Post
#14
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
100% perfect materials would be more valuable in some instances, such as gemstone lenses.
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 21 2006, 03:20 AM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
Well, why don't you just have the F10, SE10 Free Spirit start asserting itself. Remember, it wants these silly runners DEAD. It's had no choice but to do what his master's been ordering it to, and usually, powerful Free Spirits HATE this. Have it make a deal with the bugs, it'll let go of Euphoria so long as they take out the magician who bound it, or at least free it from him. then proceed with the module.
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 21 2006, 03:22 AM
Post
#16
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Yeah, enslaving powerful creatures is never a good idea.
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 21 2006, 03:32 AM
Post
#17
|
|||
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
A bound Free Spirit can't disobey and it was ordered to protect Euphoria; therefore, it can't make that deal no matter how much it may want to. But it can do other things against them. It can, for example, secretly take over an organized crime family in its spare time and tell its underlings that it doesn't like its Master. It can't order its henchmen to kill its Master but it can drop some pretty obvious hints.
Not more valuable, more useful the difference is subtle but important. These isolated cases don't do much for the commodities market at large and the people who make gemstone lenses would be buying the artificially produced materials at the same signifivcantly reduced cost that major jewelry manufacturers pay for them. Of course, if they weren't available on the open market these manufacturers would pay out the ass for them, but fencing goods for such specific applications will require quite a bit of work. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 21 2006, 10:30 PM
Post
#18
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 13-April 06 Member No.: 8,459 |
The closest it gets, would be "derailing." In actuality, I was trying to help you with your game. Get to the problem behind the problem. Because, there is a problem, one that won't just disappear with Euphoria. One of your players seems to have a source of infinite karma. I wasn't trying to attack you or your game in anyway. My first assumption was simply that it was just a player pulling the wool over his GMs eyes; wouldn't be the first time it's happened. Don't worry. I won't try to help you ever again, with this or anything else do to the rude way you responded. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 21 2006, 10:47 PM
Post
#19
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093 |
Sure it can. FS: "No, vile bug shaman! I have been ordered to protect this girl, and I shall do so as long as my master lives! He's the one with the blue eyes, spiky green hair, about five foot ten. He likes to hang out at this seedy bar, lives at 427 fake street apartment 1302, his maglock code is 74183 and he snores so loudly you could set off fireworks in his room and he wouldn't wake up. Here, I'll draw you a picture and a map. Now, even if you get this far, you'll never get past the guardian elemental, who is force 5 and weak against water attacks. And even then, my master has wards set up around his place, which you certainly could never get through without warning him unless you turn off all your magical gear before stepping through the door. No, you're not going to get this girl so long as he lives!" |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 21 2006, 11:09 PM
Post
#20
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
LOL!
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 22 2006, 03:01 AM
Post
#21
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 17-June 04 Member No.: 6,409 |
You were the least of the problem. You just offered an incorrect opinion, perhaps one that many people believe, hence why free spirits are not running the Shadowrun world. (I agree with you, the rule can break a game when applied to free spirits.) I guess the answer is whoever/whatever is in control of the body battles the challenger for the body. If the loser does not belong to the body, they must depart the body. Does this sound correct? PS: Good one Sharaloth, but this guy has kept his free spirits very happy. I would go into more details, but then I would be digressing as those with whom I was short. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 22 2006, 03:32 AM
Post
#22
|
|
|
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
This is true with normal possession but Insect Spirit investing is very different from possession. First of all, Possession can only be done against astrally active characters...... and I was about half way through that sentence when I remembered that Euphoria isn't a magician. You see, a Free Spirit possess someone by beating down that character's astral form and then taking over the body. The host must loose to the Free Spirit in Astral Combat. Do you see where this is going? The Free Spirit can't possess Euphoria because it cannot fight her in astral combat because she doesn't have the ability to interact with the astral plane. That's a problem there.
As I was saying. Insect Spirits work differently. They don't Possess their victims. They Invest their victims. The concept is superficially similar but the results and the process are very different. Free Spirits beat their hosts astral bodies into unconsciousness and then take the wheels of the host's meat bodies. The host wakes and and regains control when the Free Spirit leaves. This can be done anywhere at any time and it only takes a combat turn. Investing takes several hours and it can only be done in special cocoons. The specifics of the process are unknown but the results are. The process removes or destroys the victim's 'soul' (for lack of a better term) without damaging the meat body. The Insect Spirit then either takes up residence in the meat or consumes it completely and becomes a 'True Form'. Which of the two occurs depends on the victim's willpower. Most 'Flesh Forms' have insectile features due to the Invae's attempts to gestate into a 'True Form'. If the victim has high willpower the meat body may retain its memories and impose its personality on the Invae. Again, the exact mechanism is unknown. Perhaps the a fragment of the 'soul' survives in these 'good merges' but it may just be that the meat brain incluances the Invae where the Invae would normally influance the meat. At any rate, it is nothing like possession and there is no evidence that larval Invae can fight resisting astral forms before or during Investation. Most victims are rendered unable or unwilling to resist and it is impossible for an Invae to exist ooutside of a cacoon untill gestation is complete. Also, it does't work the same way for Shedim Possession, either. Shedim can only possess empty bodies but you can get your body back by disrupting the Shedim squatting in it. The way I see it in the case of the standard Possession power the second spirit would have to disrupt the first or force it to leave and then defeat the owner's Astral Body in Astral Combat. This should be easy since the owner will still be unconscious in most cases. In the case of Shedim Possession the Shedim has to disrupt the Free Spirit and then kill the owner in either Astral or Physical combat before taking the body. Obviously, for the Shedim to use physical combat it would require a body. In the case of Insect Spirit Investing it would be impossible. Any Free spirit would shred a larval Invae in the cocoon. The Shaman or Mother would need to disrupt it. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 22 2006, 03:54 AM
Post
#23
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 13-April 06 Member No.: 8,459 |
Please clarify for me. You agree with my incorrect opinion (which isn't incorrect; it's an opinion) that the ability when applied with a certain optional rule is broken? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 22 2006, 04:12 AM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
time for the minority report
okay advice to your magician player "Spirit these are your new standing orders You are not to act, speak, or conspire in any way to harm me. You are to actively and immediately warn me of ay plots to harm me that you discover. You are to use all your powers to oppose any attempt to free you You are to obey nobody except me You are to never speak of your true name." Oh and guys, force 3 SE 1 to F 10+ SE10+ is a huge jump over such a short time, many spirits would keep riding the gravy train until it peters out |
|
|
|
|
Jun 22 2006, 09:25 AM
Post
#25
|
|||||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 17-June 04 Member No.: 6,409 |
Exactly. The shaman made a deal when he was summoning it for binding promising an average of at least a point of karma/day over a 2 year period. The spirit agreed. He added that if the spirit were unhappy with the arrangement to let him know and he would do his best to adjust it. I let it happen as GM because the Free Spirit is like a friend for life that helps out a few days a month and drains off lots of resources. The most dangerous thing it has been asked to do is Possess people. And the shaman usually sends some summoned nature spirits to accompany the free spirit to make sure the job goes down smoothly.
Astral Gateway can be used to force the astral combat, another power the free spirit possesses. Thanks for the distinctions and explanations, they really helped.
I disagree that free spirits could not simply buy karma. It is stated in the rules that they bargain for karma all the time. Surely there are npcs willing to trade a point of karma for the book rate of 5000 nuyen a point. I think your assertion there was no such mechanism was wrong. I do agree the rule breaks the game if players take advantage of it, just look what I described, and IMO I was making the best of the situation by bleeding off resources and creating adventures out of the buying karma phase. I find it hard to believe there are not triple digit free spirits running around and ruling the world, or at least challenging dragons as the top of the hill. I have not read through Dot6W to see how the newly implemented rules would play out, but a free spirit with triple digit stats seems formidable. And they can go from newborn to this size within a year or two of game time. There should be hundreds or more of them out there, yet they are ignored like they do not or can not exist. Most canon free spirits I have heard of seem feeble by comparison. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 25th April 2024 - 01:37 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.