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 Spirit Possession question, but I was here first! |
 Jun 22 2006, 05:35 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 351 Joined: 17-February 05 Member No.: 7,093  |
The way we play it in my game, the most powerful FS on earth is a Force 25 SE 23 unique spirit. He's pretty much the strongest a spirit can get on earth with the current mana-levels (okay, so technically he's only a shard of a much greater spirit, but it still counts). Any higher, and it starts to become impossible for the gaiasphere to maintain the spirit's form (that is, the current mana-levels are actually so low as to be like a mana-warp for a spirit of that power). This forces all the uber-spirits into the metaplanes (possibly even the DEEP metaplanes) to avoid a messy death by starvation on earth. At a certain power level, the spirits NEVER come to earth, because the only time they'd be able to survive is about the same time some rather.... unpleasant characters also take up habitation.
It's not canon by any means, but I think it makes sense. |
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Jun 22 2006, 05:46 PM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
IMO that shouldn't have been a case of binding the spirit, it should have been a case of them coming to a mutual agreement. Despite any amount of promises, a free spirit would (IMO) avoid being bound at all costs. If the summoner really does just want to trade services, there's no need for enforced slavery. |
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Jun 22 2006, 06:14 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 626 Joined: 1-March 04 Member No.: 6,112 |
Also, about the Free Spirit conspiring against the player? Maybe with yaks, or wiseguys, or ninja clans, but these are bug spirits they're up against. You know, spiritual-bane-of-the-natural-order bug spirits? Piss-off-other-spirits-by-their-very-existance bug spirits? It is very unlikely that a spirit would collude with them.
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Jun 22 2006, 06:20 PM
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#29
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
An ungodly force free spirit capable of taking the bug spirits out all alone might conspire with them at first in order to remove the guy that's got his chains around the spirit's soul. Afterwards he can mop up the bad guys, earning the Run Karma as an added bonus. :)
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Jun 22 2006, 06:58 PM
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#30
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I usually see Karma for Cash as being money poured into a specific activity. It's not like there's some First International Bank of Karma sitting out there with an exchange rate, the character is spending his money on training, on books, on taking people out to dinner and socializing beyond the norm, tossing some extra cash towards that Enchantment you're working on to have a consultant tweak it a bit... whatever it is you choose to justify all that extra cash turning into what's essentially XP.
"Normal" Karma, on the other hand, is that nebulous something that makes people learn or do amazing things. It's esoteric, it's je nais se quoi, it's bullshit, but it's also the reason why a character gets better if his player does something really amusing. Feeding a free spirit bought Karma that he's essentially creating in the first place, while possible by the rules, is something I wouldn't allow. The character could use the money from his spirit to buy HIMSELF Karma (which could represent, say, days of time and thousands of rounds of ammo spent on the range), but under my paradigm of Karma for Cash, there's no way the magician should be allowed to spend that cash to turn the free spirit into something huge. Yeah. Sorry. Every other type of character in SR has to work to improve, be it improvement by boosting a skill, or by pouring his Karma into something like a bound free spirit. Having something that literally gets more powerful the more downtime I give the group is just bent. How's that song go... "Get your money for nothing, your Karma for free..." |
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Jun 22 2006, 07:02 PM
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#31
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Historically karma has been awarded for "doing the right thing." Cash for karma could simply representing donating your money to charity.
It doesn't explain how doing good acts helps you learn to speak swahili, but nothing ever has, nor do I think it needs to. |
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Jun 22 2006, 07:41 PM
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#32
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It wouldn't be able to earn karma from the run. Spirits can't earn karma. They can only recieve it (or take it in some cases). This is probably why powerful Free Spirits have set up large orginizations and cults around themselves. In some cases they exxchange power for karma. In other cases they dupe their followers into providing them with karma through worship and adulation. Of course, there is nothing stopping a Free Spirit from doing karma for cash all by itself. If the Church of Perpetual Prosperity offers 5000 :nuyen: to anyone who participates its prayer service there will be no shortage of worshipers. |
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Jun 22 2006, 07:47 PM
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#33
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I can think of few other things in SR that don't at least require you to be making a skill roll (I'm thinking Alchemy here) to turn a profit during downtime. The Day Job flaw is the only other example of something like this that comes to mind. The longer the gap I have between sessions, the more powerful this spirit is going to be when it shows up, despite nothing really "character building" having gone on. I like the general idea of the character interactions and think it could lead to some cool RP, but the way the mechanics are being handled isn't something I'd allow in a game I was running. Obviously, it works for another GM, and I'm glad they're having a good time with it. |
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Jun 22 2006, 08:07 PM
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#34
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Downtime can be very character building. If it isn't "character building" that's because it isn't roleplayed. In most campaigns downtime is simply glosses over. However, downtime can be an adventure in and of itself.
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Jun 22 2006, 08:10 PM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I wasn't saying that the wealth power should be combinable with cash for karma, just giving another option for explaining cash for karma. In fact, in a game where karma is based at least partially on good deeds, giving up something that isn't a sacrifice wouldn't be worth any karma at all (or at least have a drastically reduced rate). So an heir to a giant fortune or a sprit with the wealth power wouldn't be able to spend money for karma, he'd have to find something else to sacrifice.
Perhaps instead of a flat 1:5000 rate the karma received should be based on the amount given up. If someone has only 500:nuyen: t their name, giving it up might be worth 2 or 3 karma. If someone has millions, they'd have to use a 1:1,000,000 ratio. A spirit with a wealth power or a character with access to one couldn't benefit at all from the rule because giving up a portion of infinity isn't worth anything. The numbers aren't calculated or tested, just tossed out as a basis. |
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Jun 22 2006, 08:16 PM
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#36
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I still think that the best way to limit a spirit's weal power is be reducing the value of the raw minerals produced by the power. Even if you limit cash-for-karma you still have to deal with the magician having access to an infinite amount of money. This leads quickly to permenant luxury lifesyles, delta-grade 'ware, and Force 12 weapon foci.
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Jun 22 2006, 08:25 PM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Much simpler just to disallow it. Perhaps not the best option for some games, but it avoids having to try and decide on economic trends and the impact of a fresh supply.
Can Wealth create the various minerals used in orichalcum? Can it create orichalcum? |
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Jun 23 2006, 05:37 AM
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#38
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 17-June 04 Member No.: 6,409 |
Or selling karma for cash to a free spirit.
The PC taking the money and buying karma is Cash for Karma, which I try to minimize or the game becomes one of maxxed out PCs.
Yeah, every other character can earn, (aka work to improve) their own karma. The free spirit still needs time to learn spells, or skills. I rule the same for increasing its Attributes, but it gets thrown off by the oddity of Spirit Energy.
How is there not a skill roll? Using the Wealth power involves a roll, which is more than some powers require. If you mean the cash for karma, that can be a negotiation roll or an entire adventure in itself. For example, the runners put out word among the barrens. Some Street Shaman hears, figures out a free spirit is involved, and decides to try binding the spirit himself. Or offering the spirit a better deal. Or countless other problems arise. A runner team or gang realizes there is going to be a huge amount of cash on hand and plans a robbery. When the runners sell whatever the Wealth power generated, the buyer decides to track and steal their source. For the amount of trouble... er, I mean adventures it starts, the FS, C4K issue is worth the tiny benefits the group gets. It has put a different spin on many of the published adventures I have run the players through. It is like breathing fresh breath into old modules. I can just about count on them possessing a person or 2 and usually learning the factions involved and their goals. DNA/DOA, Mercurial, Bottled Demon, and Dream Chipper have all had radically different results than other times I have run them for other groups. |
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Jun 23 2006, 05:54 AM
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#39
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 17-June 04 Member No.: 6,409 |
I am looking at it from the other perspective, how much would an npc demand for a point of karma? It relates to how you are saying the rich would value theirs more highly.
However, if you reduce the value of the materials, the Wealth power will just supply more. Wealth provides X nuyen worth of something, not X amount of something. I also do not see why the spirit could not produce more than 1 type of X to reach the total, reducing flooding the market, if the market is so small it could be flooded.
Permanent Luxury Lifestyles usually signify character retirement. Availability still exists for acquiring other items. The PCs still need Essence for 'ware and karma for bonding. For example, in this game, the highest force spell is 8, and the PC has 2 at that force (Heal and Astral Armor) then the force drops back to 6. He still needs to be able to learn it. For that matter, so would the spirit. The same limits apply to foci in that if the force is too high, no enchanter is going to risk wasting their time trying to enchant the focus, failing and wasting their time - there are more profitable ways to use their time. The highest weapon focus is force 1, just so they can take something with +2 reach astrally. No character has delta grade anything. |
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Jun 23 2006, 06:00 AM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 17-June 04 Member No.: 6,409 |
I let it create the raw/refined materials for orichalcum. They still need to be enchanted into radicals before they may be used to make orichalcum. I would count them as virgin materials, so they have a slightly higher demand, but not higher price, than comparable materials. So someone wanting to enchant a sword would love to have the Wealth power produce a sword. I do not let the Wealth power create anything magical, like foci, just mundane items of magical origin. |
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Jun 23 2006, 01:22 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Karma is generally rewarded for things you do. Karma for good acts is generally more when the good act requires more sacrifice. If you want to let billionaires spend 5,000,000:nuyen: and get 5,000 karma that is of course your right. Just be prepared for wealthy people to be the best at everything. Some fat old couch potato could have a 20 in a skill with basically no resources spent. |
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Jun 23 2006, 01:32 PM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 7-December 02 Member No.: 3,698 |
Or just initiate until you are Level 20 and win the game. I disallow C4K and K4C. Doesn't feel right. |
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Jun 23 2006, 01:34 PM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Why not initiate to 20 and get a 20 spellcasting. You're getting karma slower than you're earning interest. :)
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