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> Permanent Essence loss reference?, Does anyone have a canonical citation?
Velocity
post Oct 14 2003, 09:41 PM
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When Essence is lost due to cyberware implantation, the consensus here on Dumpshock seems to be that it never returns. In other words, if a character installs a smartlink (0.5 Essence) and then removes it six months later, their Essence remains 5.5 and does not bounce back up to 6. I've looked through the BBB, but I can't find any support for this. I also can't find any support for the opposing point (i.e. that Essence does return when cyberware is removed).

I'd like to clarify the issue for myself: is there canonical information germane to this and if so, could someone provide me with a page reference? Thanks in advance.
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TinkerGnome
post Oct 14 2003, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE (Man and Machine @ page 147)
Remove Cyberware
Cyberware that is removed does not restore the character's lost Essence.

You also don't get back Bio Index (p. 148).
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Velocity
post Oct 14 2003, 09:54 PM
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Ah, many thanks TG! :)
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 14 2003, 10:00 PM
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...So virtual magic loss and bio index are unrelated?
Weird...

~J
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BitBasher
post Oct 14 2003, 10:02 PM
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There's really nothing virtual about virtual magic loss it even says the loss applies "any time magic rating would be a factor" which is that same as just....gone.
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Gyro the Greek S...
post Oct 14 2003, 10:27 PM
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Here's a question: what if someone removes the cyberwear that took the essence out, could they put related cyberwear in later without having to take the essence loss? Say, you could have Smartlink 2 regular-style, then take it out and put in some Smartlink 2 alphaware...if you don't lose any more essence, then you could put something else in that deficit left by the difference of alpha and regular.

Thoughts?
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 14 2003, 10:33 PM
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But the rules explicitly state, IIRC, that if the offending bioware is removed the magic returns. That and if you're reduced to 0 from virtual loss, you don't become mundane.

~J
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Velocity
post Oct 14 2003, 10:35 PM
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Now that I've found the reference TinkerGnome gave me, I can answer that. :)
QUOTE
Man & Machine, p. 147:
Cyberware can be upgraded without its removal; the cost and Essence Cost of the new part equal the total costs of the upgrade implant minus the old implant costs.

I take this to mean that the character would be able to fill the "free" space with new 'ware.
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Nindaru
post Oct 14 2003, 10:37 PM
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Ok, understand that I have no idea what the rule is... But, I have always told my players that cyberware is like a tattoo. Semi-permanent. Easy to put in, hard to get out.

In the vein, if you took out a SL2, and put in a SL2(a) I would say you lose MORE essence. Besides, I could have sworn that you have a small chance of losing essence any time you are cut open (i.e. surgery).

<runs off to check the books...>

EDIT: Velocity, so according to that, you only have to pay the difference? What if they are different grades of cyberware?
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Kagetenshi
post Oct 14 2003, 10:40 PM
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If you use the optional Surgery rules, then yes, you get screwed any way you look at it.

~J
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Cochise
post Oct 14 2003, 10:43 PM
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QUOTE (Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate)
Here's a question: what if someone removes the cyberwear that took the essence out, could they put related cyberwear in later without having to take the essence loss?  Say, you could have Smartlink 2 regular-style, then take it out and put in some Smartlink 2 alphaware...if you don't lose any more essence, then you could put something else in that deficit left by the difference of alpha and regular.

Thoughts?

Going only by the core rules you could put in there any form of cyberware ...

Going with the M&M rules you can still put any form of cyber in that "Essence Slot", as long as the removal surgery is successfully performed with the surgical option of same name

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
But the rules explicitly state, IIRC, that if the offending bioware is removed the magic returns.


Nope, they don't say so ... and as TG already pointed out, Bio-Index doesn't "regenerate" ... No explicit statement on that, but the existance of the "Bioindex Slot" option for Implants, which does the same as the "Essence Slot" option just for Bioware, heavily implies that.

QUOTE
That and if you're reduced to 0 from virtual loss, you don't become mundane.
That however is correct (until we get that new M&M Errata)
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Nindaru
post Oct 14 2003, 10:44 PM
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Kag, which optional rules? I do not have MM, nor have I read any doctoring rules lately...

<run around in circles...>
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BitBasher
post Oct 14 2003, 11:09 PM
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Optional surgery rules in Man and Machine. I like them.
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