 Unlimited army of unbound spirits?, via remote service |
 Jun 22 2006, 01:19 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 10-May 06 Member No.: 8,546  |
Unbound spirits can perform "remote services" (SR4, pg.178-179).
"Once a spirit has been given a remote service, it is technically released. Spirits on remote services no longer count against the limit of summoned spirits." (SR4, pg.178, top-right) According to that, it seems like a mage can be within LOS of a target, yet beyond the spirit range (say, 601+ meters away from the target for a mage with Magic 6 rating). Then, summon an unbound spirit, send it on a remote service to assualt the target. It is released, no longer counts against limit of summoned spirits, allowing the mage to repeat this process forever - sending unbound spirit after unbound spirit at the target. That seems way wrong to me. Then I saw... "A magician may only have one unbound spirit summoned at any given time... Spirits on remote service and on standby count toward this total." (SR4, p.179) Seems like a contradiction. Personally, I think the second one is the way to go. Thoughts? |
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Jun 22 2006, 01:22 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
One major limit to this is Drain. Personally, I think the magician should have a max number of spirits equal to half their Charisma. Bound or otherwise.
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Jun 22 2006, 02:12 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 10-May 06 Member No.: 8,546 |
Drain aside, there seems to be a contradiction in the rules. One place says unbound spirits on remote service do NOT count against your summoning limits, and another place says they DO count against your summoning limits. I'm more curious which one people think is correct. |
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Jun 22 2006, 02:36 AM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716 |
Using an army of spirits to attack somebody or something from long range is cheap and stupid.
As a gm i would inflict heavy counter attacks upon the player to screw them over ten times worse than what they did to the npc. Through ritual spellcasting and or hit sqauds from tracing the astral link back to you. also I would just say that even though an unbound spirit on remote service no longer counts towards your total i would not let another spirit go on remote service until the first one disappears. |
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Jun 22 2006, 03:24 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
The second choice doesn't sound as broken as the first so go with it.
Using GM Magic to counter the problem is more liekly to piss off players than solve the problem. Just say "no you can't do that" not "no, you're dead." |
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Jun 22 2006, 04:02 AM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
yeah, it's kinda like telling your players that the corps have effectively "unlimited" resources to hunt them down and kill them, just for being criminals. while true, your players would certainly be angry if you pulled that on them. similarly, unlimited spirits is just way too much cheese. it makes the game not fun for anyone (least of all the players, who likely have fewer mages available to summon said infinite supply of spirits as compared to corps, plus lacking the resources to heal the drain every time their magicians summon... again, unlike the corps, who can have fully trained medical teams in proper facilities.
sure, you *could* allow unlimited spirits... but it'll ruin your game. no one will have fun. it won't be about the runners or the corps anymore... it'll just be about the army of spirits either one can summon. |
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Jun 22 2006, 04:57 AM
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#7
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
edit:
never mind... memo to self, properly read the other posts in a thread before posting... i think many a confused SR4 issue comes from much of the text being copyed right out of SR3, often in bulks without a proper read... i recall being somewhat the same issue with spell defence in SR3 as they have more or less reused the text from SR2's magic sourcebook, but added the ability to use skill dice as well as magic pool dice. this lead to some confusing about when the skill dice became available again... there is a reason why SR4 needs a faq, badly... |
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Jun 22 2006, 02:56 PM
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#8
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
There are actually two contradictory paragraphs on this matter in the core book with the most often cited coming up first under Remote Services (p.178). Unfortunately that one is wrong. The correct rule is that on p.179 (just before Glitches) as will be clarified in future errata and the upcoming official FAQ:
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Jun 22 2006, 03:08 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
Synner, do you happen to know when the FAQ might be released?
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Jun 22 2006, 03:42 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Also, is there anywhere to ask questions for the FAQ? I wouldn't mind posing the question of wether or not sustaining the Innate Spell power imposes dice pool penalties. |
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Jun 22 2006, 03:50 PM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Unfortunately I can't offer a hard date. The FAQ is a priority but currently FanPro is swamped.
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Jun 22 2006, 05:08 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
What're they all busy with, out of curiousity?
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Jun 22 2006, 05:11 PM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Probably the several books about to hit the shelves. The last thing I read said that FanPro was two people. I only read that here, but don't remember any FanPro staff denying it, so I assume it's true. With 4 books due out (gear, ware, magic, matrix) two people are probably running around in circles twelve hours a day getting everything compiled, laid out, and edited. Not to mention going over the preliminaries from the printer to make sure what they designed is what actually hit the paper.
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Jun 22 2006, 05:44 PM
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#14
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
someone talked about there being a new battletech main book on the way. and if fanpro is only two people, then im not surprised if they are swamped...
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Jun 22 2006, 05:46 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
True. I wasn't even thinking of other lines, just Shadowrun, which seems like it woul be plenty of work on it's own.
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Jun 22 2006, 06:05 PM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Hey, that's the houserule I was using. Sweet! |
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Jun 22 2006, 06:11 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
THANK YOU! This has been desparately needed for some time. Please include a big clarification on the Response Decrease rules for the Matrix, particularily as they relate to Agents and IC. |
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 Jun 22 2006, 06:33 PM
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#18
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,586 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
It's not really a house rule, if it's in the book. :D Bye Thanee |
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 Jun 22 2006, 06:36 PM
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#19
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jacked in Group: Admin Posts: 9,586 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 463 |
I actually don't see them as contradictory. Both are correct. 1) Spirits on remote do not count against the limit of summoned (i.e. unbound) spirits. 2) Spirits on remote plus bound spirits count against the limit of bound spirits. Certainly, some FAQ clarification is in order here, since it's surely confusing, but if you look close enough, I think it's fairly clear, how it is meant, and that both rules are actually about different limits. Bye Thanee |
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Jun 22 2006, 06:48 PM
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#20
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
If it's going to get errattaed, I think that's a clearer indication of how it was meant than one interpretation or the other.
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Jun 22 2006, 11:37 PM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 10-May 06 Member No.: 8,546 |
See, that's not how I read it at all. Reading the p.179 text... "A Magician may only have one unbound spirit summoned at any given time, and no more bound spirits than her Charisma score. Spirits on remote service and standby count toward this total." (Emphasis mine) To me, that means a Mage with Charisma score of 6 can have seven spirits (one unbound, and six bound). That is the summoned limit at any given time. This section tells me even if you put any of those 7 spirits on remote service, they still count against your cap of 7 spitirs summoned. The p.178 text that says spirits on remote service are released and no longer count against the limit of summoned spirits contradicts the above. I think they are talking about the same rule. It looks like someone official posted above in this thread anyway, saying p.179 was the way to go. |
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Jun 23 2006, 02:59 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
Right. The question the errata needs to clarify is WHICH limit p 179 is saying Remote Service spirits count against: '1 unbound spirit', or 'Charisma bound spirits'? The reference 'this total' is ambiguous, and could refer to either.
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Jun 23 2006, 03:00 AM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Luckily we know which way the erratta will fall. :)
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Sep 18 2006, 12:02 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 671 Joined: 9-March 06 Member No.: 8,353 |
Just tell me this;
My character summons a fire spirit, and siccs it on somebody as a remote service. While that fire Spirit is doing the munching, can I summon an earth spirit to dig a grave on remote service? Can I even summon an earth spirit at all? |
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Sep 18 2006, 01:14 AM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Currently you can summon the earth spirit. When the erratta arrives, assuming it says what we've been promised, you'll have to release the fire spirit to summon the earth one.
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