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Trouble with Game Balance

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eidolon

Jun 23 2006, 08:15 PM

Post #26

ghostrider

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QUOTE (Shrike30)

Wouldn't that become immediately obvious the minute your perspective changed? It could fool non-scanning cameras, but that's about it.

It would become obvious when you walked through it. Not until then.

(Feel free to rule otherwise, of course.)

Shrike30

Jun 23 2006, 08:30 PM

Post #27

Runner

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QUOTE (eidolon)

It would become obvious when you walked through it. Not until then.

(Feel free to rule otherwise, of course.)

It's not a ruling thing. My understanding of what he's doing, based on his description, is essentially hanging a phantasm picture of the hallway over the hallway. If you did this with a real picture of the hallway, it would work as long as you were staring directly down the center of the hallway, but if you moved up against one of the walls, you'd get a distinct perspective shift as you get out of line with the assumed viewing angle of the picture.

If the illusion is being done differently, I didn't get that impression from his description.

shadowbod

Jun 23 2006, 08:41 PM

Post #28

Target

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QUOTE (Protagonist)

They don't need to take anything away. With the illusion just create a one-way "wall" that displays an image of the hallway, empty.

Also, on top of Shrike's point about the perspective being wrong, the description of the spell says it can be used to create an illusion of anything he/she has seen before. I doubt he's seen a perspective-picture of that empty hallway. Enforcing that part of the rule can be a nice way of controlling the power of illusions (not great, but a little help).

Protagonist

Jun 23 2006, 09:00 PM

Post #29

Target

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QUOTE (Shrike30)

I didn't get that impression from his description.

I guess it depends on how phantasm works, and what defines a "convincing" illusion. It could probably be done so that as the perspective changed, the illusion changed to meet it.

Also, I have no idea how it was actually done, the "wall" thing was just a guess.

Kyoto Kid

Jun 23 2006, 09:13 PM

Post #30

Bushido Cowgirl

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QUOTE (ShadowDragon)

For your situation...I'm pretty sure On the Run is designed around a 4 man team, not a 7 man team. You shouldn't feel bad about increasing the difficulty of the fights.

...we currently have a team of three 400pt characters, - A Face/Conman, A Blade/Gunslinger Adept, and a Mage with some hacking skill - going through On the Run. Admittedly, with this small a group it definitely is a bit more of a challenge. Everyone got beat up pretty good in the second fight (my character, the Adept, and the Face/Conman were knocked out after taking a couple of the bad guys down) but we survived and are currently hiding out & recovering.

I could see with one or two more characters, the outcome may have been quite different and we may have actually finished the entire module in one sitting.

James McMurray

Jun 23 2006, 09:19 PM

Post #31

Great Dragon

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QUOTE

I'm reading a lot of "make the players conform to your expectations." I'm not sure I can agree with that sort of sentiment.

Quite right. Everyone should agree on what they want the game to be like. But once that agreement is made, characters built need to stick to it. If the game is going to be street level and someone makes an elf physad with over 20 pistols dice, it won't work.

QUOTE

I've always felt that the GM isn't there to be served by the players, but to serve the players. As GM, you are the "fun facilitator" for the group.

Speaking as a GM I have to say "Hell No!" I'm there to have fun just as much as the players are. If anything, the GM deserves a bit more respect and/or leeway at the table becuase he (or she) is the one doing the vast majority of the work. One of the fastest ways to an unfun game for everyone is a GM that isn't enjoying himself.

QUOTE

In fact, having the opposition get walked all over by the team is a Good Thing. It allows you to rachet up the opposition bit by bit in future runs until it gets to the appropriate level. It's far and away better than approaching that limit from the other direction.

Both directions can work fine. A campaign starting off with the runners seriously outclassed gives them a reason to think hard, plan well, and work to advance themselves. A campaign starting off with the opposition outclassed gives the GM room to ramp up to a typical "start slow, end fast" climax.

SL James

Jun 24 2006, 12:10 AM

Post #32

Shadowrun Setting Nerd

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QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Jun 23 2006, 12:41 PM)

SR4's character construction results let you put together characters who are the "ultimate build" at doing something right out of the box. Asides from the ever-improving Adept exception, you can put together new characters who throw as many dice as a veteran character in a hyperspecialist role... literally, you can make a character with no room for improvement at what he does.

Reminds me of something I saw on that rpg.net thread.

Level Caps
(Full post)

Shrike30

Jun 24 2006, 12:16 AM

Post #33

Runner

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QUOTE (SL James)

Level Caps

*shrug* When you hit the maximum ability that a system will represent, what seperates the good from the gods is how they act using those dice. I don't have a huge problem with level caps, personally.

SL James View Member Profile	Jun 24 2006, 12:17 AM Post #34
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	That makes one of us.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Jun 24 2006, 12:24 AM Post #35
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	I don't know how long it'll take me, but I will make it through all 130+ pages of that! :)

Eyeless Blond

Jun 24 2006, 12:44 AM

Post #36

Decker on the Threshold

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QUOTE (shadowbod)

QUOTE (Protagonist)

They don't need to take anything away. With the illusion just create a one-way "wall" that displays an image of the hallway, empty.

Also, on top of Shrike's point about the perspective being wrong, the description of the spell says it can be used to create an illusion of anything he/she has seen before. I doubt he's seen a perspective-picture of that empty hallway. Enforcing that part of the rule can be a nice way of controlling the power of illusions (not great, but a little help).

There's also the "cheap" balance method that no illusion can work on any astrally-perceiving or projecting character. That rule means you have to have magic to beat magic, but I guess them's the breaks.

booklord

Jun 24 2006, 08:58 PM

Post #37

Moving Target

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QUOTE

booklord, why is that a problem? It seems to me that's what a clockwork run should do.

Going from the idea the run wasn't challenging enough...... Some of the fault is mine, I admit. I had beefed up the opposition to give them more of a challenge, but it just never occured to me they might bypass the fight entirely.

QUOTE

I see no spells in SR4 that are AoE invisibility, and trid phantasm can only add stuff not take it away, what gives?

If I create the illusion of a giant rock, and you knowing it was an illusion walked into it you'd disappear from view right? If I create the illusion of a empty hallway what happens when you walk into it? This is not entirely without written precedent in SR3. In Arcology:Shutdown a mage casts an illusion of a closed blast door on one of the Renraku Arcology blast doors. When the door opens noone sees it because the illusion of a closed door is still there.

QUOTE

Wouldn't that become immediately obvious the minute your perspective changed? It could fool non-scanning cameras, but that's about it.

Does the illusion of a dragon become obvious if you walk around it? I agree with the sentiment that the illusion becomes obvious only if the person walks through it. I should also mention in this case the illusion was mana based not physical.

QUOTE

There's also the "cheap" balance method that no illusion can work on any astrally-perceiving or projecting character. That rule means you have to have magic to beat magic, but I guess them's the breaks.

But of course. But in this case the illusion was not for the Horison team but for the gangers inside the bar.

QUOTE

booklord you should have had the Horizon/Shangri-La team jump them when they were leaving with Loomis. Remeber that casting spells sets off an astral "beacon." And considering the corp team had a mage (that was watching Loomis closely) you can easily explain how they spot the team and spring an ambush. Even min-maxed characters can be challenged by an ambush where the opposition all gets 1 free unapposed shot at you.

Except the team found the Horizon team without the Horizon team spotting them. The wujen kept the Horison team under constant watch after they found them. There was no ambush to be had. If anything the team would have ambushed the Horizon team. Also remember the spell was cast indoors. Physical walls don't as phyical barriers in astral space but they do act as visual ones. Now I could have had the Horizon mage make take a peek while the team was doing their thing. But if I had it would have been the wujen and quite possibly the shaman as well doing the ambushing and the poor Horizon mage being the ambushee.

Abbandon

Jun 24 2006, 09:46 PM

Post #38

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (booklord)

Physical walls don't as phyical barriers in astral space but they do act as visual ones.

Uhh as in blocking line of sight??

booklord

Jun 25 2006, 01:17 AM

Post #39

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Abbandon)

QUOTE (booklord @ Jun 24 2006, 02:58 PM)

Physical walls don't as phyical barriers in astral space but they do act as visual ones.

Uhh as in blocking line of sight??

I'm not sure where that one is going but the shaman did have line of sight with the hallway when she cast the spell. It was the wujen who kept an eye on the Horison team. He's better suited for it because he's a grade 1 initiate with masking.

( Yeah I know that two awakened characters on a team of four is a little odd but I just don't feel comfortable telling a player he can't have a magician simply cause another player has one )

SL James

Jun 25 2006, 01:34 AM

Post #40

Shadowrun Setting Nerd

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QUOTE (James McMurray)

I don't know how long it'll take me, but I will make it through all 130+ pages of that! :)

I've read every post in 235 pages. There are some real winners in there.

Ankle Biter

Jul 3 2006, 04:15 PM

Post #41

Moving Target

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QUOTE (booklord)

QUOTE

I see no spells in SR4 that are AoE invisibility, and trid phantasm can only add stuff not take it away, what gives?

If I create the illusion of a giant rock, and you knowing it was an illusion walked into it you'd disappear from view right? If I create the illusion of a empty hallway what happens when you walk into it? This is not entirely without written precedent in SR3. In Arcology:Shutdown a mage casts an illusion of a closed blast door on one of the Renraku Arcology blast doors. When the door opens noone sees it because the illusion of a closed door is still there.

QUOTE

Wouldn't that become immediately obvious the minute your perspective changed? It could fool non-scanning cameras, but that's about it.

Does the illusion of a dragon become obvious if you walk around it? I agree with the sentiment that the illusion becomes obvious only if the person walks through it. I should also mention in this case the illusion was mana based not physical.

Basic point though is a blast door / giant rock is opaque, empty air is not. You would be a head poking out of a rock, for example. To put it another way, if this were not the case, then you could cast "the illusion of a window" on a wall, and be able to see through it. Why? Find a phoen box, cast "the illusion of an empty phone box" on it, fill it with people. According to your picture you can still see right through the phone box now? even if things behind it moved since it filled with people? Now just replace "people" with "bricks" , and have the people already in there when you cast the spell.

A poster of a dragon looks different to a carving of a dragon if you move round both. If you put a poster of an empty hallway in front of a hallway it would take a pretty drunk student to try to walk down it just the same as if you hung it on a wall. Sure you can't see what's going on in the hallway, but you sure enough can see that it's a picture of a hallway, not a hallway. This is also why ruthenium pisses me off.

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