Singin the machine gun blues..., and oh yeah, whattabout the sprawl too? Options

[Emrak]

Two questions.

Firstly.... We ran our first SR4 run-through today and I had an npc whip out an Igram White Knight machine gun. It was incredibly confusing figuring out how to simply fire a burst of random fire at a group of 3 folks (and I'm still not sure if our take on it is accurate). Can someone wise to the ways of this break it down for me?

Bad Guy: Fires full auto at 3 PC's
----What's he roll for here?

PC 1:
PC 2:
PC 3:
----What'd they roll for here?


Second question is...does anyone have a good, detailed map of Seattle? Showing the sprawl, etc....

Thanks

[James McMurray]

What's his skill? Did he have any recoil compensation?

They always roll reaction (+ dodge or gymnastics if they forego their next action to full defense). If they're hit they roll armor + body to soak.

[Emrak]

[James McMurray]

Full auto is -9 dice. With no recoil compensation he'll be rolling -2 dice.

Multiple targets is -2 dice per target, so he'll have -2 dice on the first, -4 dice on the second, and -6 dice on the third.

He might want to invest in some more skill, or at least some recoil comp. :)

[Jaid]

well, first off, he has no dice pool for any of those shots =P heavy weapons isn't in the firearms group ;)

but, for the sake of argument, we'll assume you meant skill 4, and we'll assume the missing bullet in the last burst (note 3 short bursts is the rules, which is 9 bullets... presumably one just sorta doesn't count for anything)

so, starts off with 7 dice. against:

[ Spoiler ]

PC 1: 4 skill + 3 attribute -2 recoil = 5 dice
PC 2: 4 skill + 3 attribute - 5 recoil - 2 first extra target = 0 dice. longshot test needed
PC 3: 4 skill + 3 attribute - 9 recoil - 2 first extra target - 2 second extra target = 0 dice. longshot test needed.

a better example, IMO, as it shows the progression better, would be a maxed out elf gun adept: 7(10) agility, 7(10) heavy weapons (LMG specialisation) with a smartlinked gun, for a total of 24 dice to start off. still no recoil compensation

[ Spoiler ]

PC 1: 10 skill + 10 attribute + 2 smartlink + 2 specialisation - 2 recoil = 22 dice
PC 2: 10 skill + 10 attribute + 2 smartlink + 2 specialisation - 5 recoil - 2 first extra target = 17 dice
PC 3: 10 skill + 10 attribute + 2 smartlink + 2 specialisation - 9 recoil - 2 first extra target - 2 second extra target = 11 dice

and, perhaps a more reasonable example? chargen possible even

elven samurai: 6(8) agility, 6(7) heavy weapons, smartlink, and specialisation in LMGs, and we'll run two examples: one with no recoil compensation, one with the standard white knight's regular recoil compensation, and one with gyro stabilisation added on:

so, no recoil comp.

[ Spoiler ]

PC 1: 7 skill + 8 attribute + 2 smartlink + 2 specialisation - 2 recoil = 17 dice
PC 2: 7 skill + 8 attribute + 2 smartlink + 2 specialisation - 5 recoil - 2 first extra target = 12 dice
PC 3: 7 skill + 8 attribute + 2 smartlink + 2 specialisation - 9 recoil - 2 first extra target - 2 second extra target = 6 dice

standard white knight (6 points recoil comp)

[ Spoiler ]

PC 1: 7 skill + 8 attribute + 2 smartlink + 2 specialisation = 19 dice (would be 2 points of recoil, but recoil comp negates all)
PC 2: 7 skill + 8 attribute + 2 smartlink + 2 specialisation - 2 first extra target = 17 dice (would be 5 points of recoil, but recoil comp negates all)
PC 3: 7 skill + 8 attribute + 2 smartlink + 2 specialisation - 3 recoil - 2 second extra target = 14 dice (would be 9 points of recoil, but recoil comp negates 6)

and with a gyro stabiliser added on:

[ Spoiler ]

PC 1: 7 skill + 8 attribute + 2 smartlink + 2 specialisation = 19 dice (would be 2 points of recoil, but recoil comp negates all)
PC 2: 7 skill + 8 attribute + 2 smartlink + 2 specialisation - 2 first extra target = 17 dice (would be 5 points of recoil, but recoil comp negates all)
PC 3: 7 skill + 8 attribute + 2 smartlink + 2 specialisation - 2 first extra target - 2 second extra target = 15 dice (would be 9 points of recoil, but recoil comp negates it all)

hope that helps.

[edit] spoilers added to shorten post [/edit]

This post has been edited by Jaid: Jun 25 2006, 01:20 AM

[kigmatzomat]

(Edited b/c I forgot LMG was a heavy weapon)

Generally you would handle it as 3 short bursts (p.144 "Full Bursts, multiple targets").
Assuming a LMG with no recoil comp or smart link:

So shooting Target A agil:3+skill:4 -4 burst = 3 dice
vs Target B agil:3+skill:4 -4 burst -6 burst -2 target = -5 dice
vs Target C agil:3+skill:4 -4 burst -6 burst -6 burst -2 target -2 target = -13 dice


However the Ingram has RC:5 inherently and assuming the sam is using 2050-tech and has it smart linked:

shooting Target A agil:3+skill:4 +2 smart -0 recoil (5-2) = 9 dice
vs Target B agil:3+skill:4 +2 smart -0 recoil (5-5) -2 target = 7 dice
vs Target C agil:3+skill:4 +2 smart -6 recoil (2x 5-8 ) -4 mult targets = -4 die = longshot test

The ~1,000Y of getting a smartlink retrofit and smart contacts is obviously worth it since it increases his dice pool by ~33%.

He should also consider investing in a 3,000Y gyromount.

shooting Target A agil:3+skill:4 +2 smart -0 recoil (11-2) = 9 dice
vs Target B agil:3+skill:4 +2 smart -0 recoil (11-5) -2 target = 7 dice
vs Target C agil:3+skill:4 +2 smart -0 recoil (11-8 ) -4 mult targets = 5 dice

This post has been edited by kigmatzomat: Jun 25 2006, 01:44 PM

[Squinky]

[ShadowDragon]

Any uncompensated recoil with heavy weapons is double penalty (page 142).

Unless you get gyro stabilization or a tripod, you're not going to be rolling any dice.

The rules for firing on multiple targets in one full burst is on page 144. If you want to fire two bursts (or semi auto shots) at two targets, the second burst is fired at a -2 penalty.

Maps

[ShadowDragon]

I also houserule that high strength gives recoil compensation. 6 str gives 1 RC, and every 3 after that gives another, so a troll with 15 str has 4 RC (6, 9, 12, 15). Since strength is only useful for athletics and melee damage, I thought it needed some love. I also like reenforcing the idea of the huge troll carrying the HMG :D

[Emrak]

Thanks for all the help so far fellas. What's really throwing me off I guess is that in the Multiple Targets section on pg 144 it reference breaking up the Full Burst into "short" bursts. But there is nowhere in that damned book that describes what a "short burst" is!

[kigmatzomat]

Short and long bursts are described on page 143/144. "Short" bursts are the typical 3-round burst. Long bursts are 6-round bursts. A "Full" burst is a 10-round hail of bullets.

Typically you only use Full bursts when trying to decimate a single hard target, the rest of the time you use a mixture of single shots, short bursts, and long bursts.

You could, in full-auto mode, fire 10 rounds at 10 different targets, assuming each was within a meter of the next. Sure, you'd be at -18 for the last guy but the first one would get a full dice pool shot to the guts.

[Emrak]

[Aaron]

[Aaron]

Short vs. long is how the rules differentiate between a three-round and a six-round burst. Sure, the "official" terms for these appear to be "burst" and "long burst," but as you can see in my previous post, the rules use the term "short burst" to differentiate a three-round burst from a long burst.

Narrow vs. wide is how the rules differentiate between the method the attacker is using with the burst or full-auto fire. It is separate from the number of bullets being used.

[Jaid]

[hobgoblin]

heh, i can confirm that double recoil "problem" with heavy weapons.

i had a orc use a LMG (still a heavy weapon so it should have double recoil i belive) on full auto, -9 dice on the test and all that. i forgot to invoke the double recoil and yet he had only 2 dice to roll after the mod :eek:

lets just say he didnt hit the barn wall he was aiming at ;)

with double recoil he would not even have said 2 dice as his effective recoil mod would be -18 dice...

[James McMurray]

Sorry. I didn't look up the weapon, so didn't realize it was heavy. That example guy ain't hittin' squat! :)

[hobgoblin]

funny thing tho is that it would be safe to stand behind and to the sides of the target, as bullets that miss, vanish...
still, i dont have a problem with that as having to find out where 10 or more bullets ended up could be mostly a waste of time...

[Shrike30]

I'm pretty sure the double recoil penalty is one of the reasons the IWK has 5(6) points of recoil comp...

[Dr. Dodge]

google maps + SR sites

another from the same site

it's in german, but we all know germans love SR the most right? ;)

EDIT: link was incorrect

[Aaron]

[Lagomorph]

With out RC on your LMG, the best you can hope for is suppressive fire.

[Dr. Dodge]

[Jaid]

never mind hungary. the US is behind Canada. *Canada*

you know, the place with a little over 1/10 the population of the US?

and we're ahead of you? what's wrong with you wackos??? clearly you all need to get your act together and start playing shadowrun :P

[James McMurray]

Gimme some books to buy and I'll buy them. :)

All you other countries are behind us because we know where to go for Shadowrun websites. We don't have to fumble our way through google searches. :)