Flechette ammunition, why not use them? Options

[Dentris]

Ok, i'm about to make a little bit of math here. First, there are regular ammo. They deal Ballistic damage. Nothing to say about them.

Second, APDS ammo. Hey, -4 to armor, that's a lot of damage, no? Well, not really, considering it is only 1.3333 hits less than with regular ammo. It is worth it, but noras uber as it used to be.

And now, you have flechette ammunition. They increase a gun's damage by 2, but increases an existing armor by the same amount. It is still more powerful than APDS IMO, and way more powerful than regular ammo. Flechette ammunition's damage are soaked with Impact armor, which is already (on average) 2 points lower than ballistic armor. It means the increase in armor only puts the Impact armor value back to normal ballistic value. Add to this the fact that you have just increased the damage by 2, and you have ammunitions more powerful than what is supposed to be the strongest ammo in the game.

[Glyph]

You need to remember, though, that the main function of APDS isn't to do damage, but to penetrate armor. In SR4, if your modified DV isn't higher than the AP-modified armor rating, the attack only does stun damage. Flechette is more damaging - that's what it's designed for - but APDS is more likely to do physical, rather than stun, damage against a decently-armored target.

So APDS fits its role as a specialized armor-penetrating round well. Flechette is designed to be more damaging, but less effective against armor. To me, the true "most powerful" ammo in the game would be EX Explosive, which has the improved damage of flechette, combined with decreasing, rather than increasing, a target's armor.

At the same cost, EX Explosive is usually the better buy. But one of the things making flechette ammo attractive is the Viper Slivergun, with its high ammo capacity, burst-fire capability in a heavy pistol, and integral sound suppression. Plus 8P damage. 8)

[Jaid]

yeah, as far as reasons not to use flechette i have only one:

ex-ex ammo. cheaper, and better in every way than flechette.

otherwise your post is right on target. of course, at this point your question would become "why not use ex-ex ammo all the time.", to which i have no real answer.

as far as using normal ammo over flechette ammo, well... normall ammo is a ton cheaper.

and as far as using APDS ammo over flechette, anything with hardened armor makes APDS look really appealing.

[KeyMasterOfGozer]

Well, you've always got at least one reason not to use any of those ammo types.... Murder is a lot higher penalty crime than Assault and Battery. That means the authorities are more likely to put more resources towards tracking you down if you kill people.

Another reason not to use Double X is because it is Illegal (Forbidden).

[ShadowDragon8685]

None of us give a flying frag that it's illeagal. Crime is our stock in trade.

The reason not to use Ex-Ex all the time? This is the only one that comes to mind. :)

[Squinky]

The only reason to use flechette over Exex is when using shotgun spread rules. Sometimes that can be pretty wicked when taking out big groups of gangers etc. But otherwise, exex is the way to go.

On the subject, in the game I run I chuckle a little at the gun bunny. She has silenced predators that she shoots exex through, kinda contradicts itself.

[Crusher Bob]

The ammo rules in SR4 are a mess, check out Serbitars house rules for them or come up with your own.

[hyzmarca]

The best reason to use flechette is the Ares Viper Slivergun.

[Squinky]

That gun is pretty sweet.

[ShadowDragon8685]

[Squinky]

I hear that arguement all the time. And I agree, although most of the time people being shot see her shooting in the first place. It still will bring unwanted attention.

[Clyde]

Stick-n-Shock has its place, too! In fact, in anything smaller than an SMG (i.e. 4P damage code or less) Stick-n-shock is more effective than EX EX. It's at a tie at 5P. Gel is nice for that knockdown effect, and cheap enough to lay down suppressing fire with.

Ultimately, though, ammo choice is dependant upon style. The extra point of damage that EX EX promises doesn't make it that much more effective than standard explosive - especially if you've got a gas vented assualt rifle/smg full of the stuff that you're spraying out in nice, narrow bursts. Regular ammo can be plenty deadly, and at 1/5th the cost of the good stuff it's certainly got its place. If you absolutely, positively need to have the most damaging ammo/gun combination, you probably haven't planned your tactics right!

[Aaron]

APDS is very useful for taking on materialized spirits.

[James McMurray]

[Nim]

What's really odd about flechette ammo is that it's actually BETTER against an armored target than standard ammo would be.

Consider a pistol with a 6P DV, versus a target in a suit of 6/4 armor and 6 Body. Let's assume 1 single net hit for the attacker in both cases:

Standard ammo: 6P + 1 = 7P versus Ballistic 6. This attack beats the armor rating and does physical damage. The target resists with Body 6 + Ballistic 6 = 12 dice, averaging 4 hits. Target takes a 3P wound.

Flechette ammo: 8P + 1 = 9P versus Impact 4 + AP 2 = Impact 6. This attack beats the armor rating and does physical damage. The target resists with Body 6 + Impact 6 = 12 dice, averaging 4 hits. Target takes a 5P wound.

This totally fails to model the expected 'flechette is great against unarmored targets but sucks against armor' behavior.

As an afterthought....

APDS ammo: 6P +1 = 7P versus Ballistic 6 - AP 4 = Ballistic 2. Does physical damage. Target resists with Body 6 + Ballistic 2 = 8 dice, averaging 2 hits. Target takes a 4P wound.

>> Edit: Whoops. Make that 5P. Math is hard!

Ex-EX ammo: 8P + 1 = 9P versus Ballistic 6 - AP 2 = Ballistic 4. Does physical damage. Target resists with Body 6+ Ballistic 4 = 10 dice, averaging 3 hits. Target takes a 6P wound.

This post has been edited by Nim: Jun 27 2006, 01:26 AM

[James McMurray]

Gel rounds have the same oddity in that they're better than normal ammunition.

The APDS vs. Ex-ex is intentional. It's why Ex-ex costs more than APDS.

[Nim]

Yeah. But my memory (posting from work, so no book) is that APDS has a harsher availability rating than Ex-ex, which doesn't make much sense.

[James McMurray]

APDS is military grade ammunition. Ex-ex is civilian grade. IIRC Ex-ex has a different legality factor, but they might both be F.

[Red]

One missing factor in leveling the field between ammunition is the lack of finesse in the way different ammo penetrate cover. Consider the following examples. Should stick-n-shock penetrate even a decent sofa? Should Ex-Ex prematuraly detonate once it impacts cover with sufficient force? I've always thought that if APDS or regular rounds were given an advantage when penetrating cover help migitate some of the imbalances.

Disclaimer: I'm using cover within the context of a non-trivial obstruction that isn't immediately adjacent to the target.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Well, if you want to do the "Flechettes are good against unarmed targets but suck against armor" would be to have it rolled against double any armor's ballistic rating.

[James McMurray]

I believe SR3 was double impact for gel and flechette. In most cases that would make for some much less powerful ammo in SR4 (at least compared to normal ammo). It would still be stronger than default ammo against most armor types, but if you get an armor whose double impact is more than 6 points higher than ballistic you'll be at a point where you want regular armor instead.

[Nim]

The SR4 approach for AP values has some pros and cons. In the case of flechettes, 'double Impact' might actually work better than a flat increase in the armor rating. If you wanted flechette stats that made it dangerous to unarmored targets, but merely equal to regular ammo against someone who was wearing any armor at all, you'd have to go with something like DV +2, AP +6. And the problem with THAT is that the difference between armor with a Impact rating of 0 and one with a rating of just 1 becomes very abrupt.

[Moon-Hawk]

I've been using double impact. It seems to work well. It still tears up unarmored and very lightly armored people, but fares poorly against heavier armors.

[Shrike30]

I flat-out removed EX-EX from the game. It makes choosing ammo types a lot more interesting.

[Moon-Hawk]

I think a lot of people have removed EX-EX from their games. I have.