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the 7th world, a though

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coolgrafix

Jun 28 2006, 10:49 PM

Post #26

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...=11920&hl=blame!

I like the way you think, Hyz.

Shrike30

Jun 28 2006, 11:41 PM

Post #27

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QUOTE (JesterX @ Jun 28 2006, 06:52 AM)

It's absolutly astonishing to see references taken from Shadowrun material on a End of the world website:

Just a quick google search with the terms : mayan calendar 7137 2012 and I found this... lol

QUOTE (Witness)

Now that's funny.

Y'all are aware that Shadowrun referenced the Mayan calendar to figure out when the 6th world would begin, and (in theory) when the world would end, right?

That is, if, say, an End of the World website were to draw from a similar source (like, oh, I dunno... the Mayan calendar) it might come up with the same dates that Shadowrun uses?

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Jun 29 2006, 12:01 AM Post #28
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	The site that was linked to used quotes from Ehran the Scribe to justify the beleifs stated. It cites the quote by providing a link to dumpshock.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Jun 29 2006, 12:02 AM Post #29
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	Oh, score :) Okay, I'm an ass :notworthy:

Rock

Jun 29 2006, 12:05 AM

Post #30

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QUOTE (Cray74)

QUOTE (stevenrockwell @ Jun 28 2006, 11:55 AM)

In the real world, sure, continents don't move except at a snail's pace.

And in this fictional world, continents didn't move in the 2nd World or the 4th World (which also had the elves, horrors, and uber-magic). It's unlikely to happen in the 6th World, either.

Unlikely doesn't mean impossible, especially if the writers decide it needs to happen. This is fiction after all and anything can happen with the stroke of a pen.

JesterX

Jun 29 2006, 12:49 AM

Post #31

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

The site that was linked to used quotes from Ehran the Scribe to justify the beleifs stated. It cites the quote by providing a link to dumpshock.

It even got a link to the Dumpshock website ^_^

Witness

Jun 29 2006, 01:24 PM

Post #32

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I'll chuck this in here, because I guess it's relevant to the original subject. This is from the game I finished running recently- a transcript that the players acquired, and one that opened the PCs' eyes to the wider history of the Sixth World. Might get a rise out of some people! ;)

QUOTE (the BC transcript)

According to ancient sources (including Great Dragons and Immortal Elves), the world entered its sixth cycle of magic in 2011 (the Awakening), hence many magic users refer to this as the Sixth World- often without dwelling on all that this implies.

This belief prompted an enthusiastic re-evaluation of the Mayan ‘Long Count’ calendar, but it should be noted that the Mayan calendar predicted that the new cycle would begin on December 12th 2012 (not December 24th 2011), and according to the Popol Vuh, a sacred Mayan text, this date would herald the arrival of the fifth (and final) world, not the sixth.

Of course some scholars claim that the miscalculations are not the Mayans but ours (for not converting dates properly, for example). This is pure egotistical bluster.

At any rate, let us unfold this calendar as best we can. If the ‘cycle theory’ is pursued in a logically consistent fashion then the ‘First World’ began in ~23613 BCE. This would have been a non-magical world.

The ‘Second World’ in which magic should first have appeared, began in ~18488 BCE- it can be surmised that Dragons, in their current magical form, should not have existed before this. Some do refer to the Second World as the ‘Dragon Age’.

The Third World, non-magical again, would have begun in ~13363 BCE.

The Fourth World (magical again) would have begun in ~8238 BCE, peaked in ~5675 BCE and ended in ~3113 BCE (with, it is claimed, the sinking of Atlantis).

The Fifth World, non-magical and occupying most of recorded history, ended with the Awakening, while the current Sixth World is scheduled to end in ~7137 AD, and with it magic will supposedly vanish for another 5125 years.

Upon this essentially anecdotal framework let us superimpose various other events that are supported by geological, archaeological and genetic evidence:

Homo sapiens appears around 400000 BCE, evolving from Homo erectus forebears. Migrations out of Africa begin some time between 80000 and 64000 BCE. In about 72000 BCE there is a severe bottleneck in the human population (leaving only 2000-10000 individuals worldwide), possibly caused by volcanic catastrophe (Toba). Humans first reach America around 48000 BCE and Australia about 40000 BCE. This is all pre-‘First World’.

The ice age, building up since ~70000 BCE, reaches its maximum extent in around 18000 BCE and lasts until roughly 10000 BCE. The Second World, with the first appearance of Dragons and Magic, should therefore have begun at the height of the Ice Age, peaking around 16000 BCE, and ending well before the ice age did (in the non-magical Third World).

The Egyptian empire dates to roughly 3000 BCE- the very beginning of the Fifth World, though of course some claim that the Pyramids and Sphinx are older than this.

The cyclical theory of magic does not comfortably mesh with the scientific evidence, particularly when it comes to the earlier ages. The evidence, independently verifiable, mutually reinforcing, and coming as it does from multiple disciplines, is likely reasonably accurate.

Probably the Mayan Long Count is overly simplistic (it is lauded by Ehran but described by Dunklezahn as merely ‘more accurate than most’). It seems probable that the cycle of magic is not nearly so clockwork and predictable as some would choose to believe.

Have at it folks.

stevebugge View Member Profile	Jun 29 2006, 03:24 PM Post #33
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996	A reconciling thought or two here. Perhaps something done in the first world started the magic cycle, maybe some event in Babylon, Ur or some other Mesopotamian city. There may be earlier cycles that were not recorded (at least not by humans, and dragons aren't sharing).

coolgrafix

Jun 29 2006, 03:41 PM

Post #34

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QUOTE (stevebugge @ Jun 29 2006, 10:24 AM)

A reconciling thought or two here.

Perhaps something done in the first world started the magic cycle, maybe some event in Babylon, Ur or some other Mesopotamian city.

There may be earlier cycles that were not recorded (at least not by humans, and dragons aren't sharing).

Perhaps there is yet another unknown (or simply undisclosed) threshold at work. Perhaps the Gaiasphere itself had to reach a certain threshhold before the cycle first began. Perhaps this was tied in some way to sentient populations in the Gaiasphere or perhaps a level or collective awareness of those in the Gaiasphere.

It's also possible that the cycle has been in progress since the first living thing came to exist on the planet some millenia ago. Ehran mentions that the cycle fluctuates and is somewhat erratic. Perhaps by the time anyone was clued-in enough to notice it or understand what was happening it was just after the last Ice Age.

It's also simply possible that the various "worlds" are simply nomenclature provided by those who assumed the world began with them. ;)

Sicarius View Member Profile	Jun 29 2006, 04:22 PM Post #35
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 908 Joined: 31-March 05 From: Georgia Member No.: 7,270	Don't quite a variety of shadowrun storylines involve screw with the cycle? Such as the ghost dance hurrying the arrival of the Horros, and Azzie attempts to bring the horrors etc? that would suggest to me that when the cycle occurs is dependent on what is done during that period which can shorten or lengthen the cycle

John Campbell

Jun 29 2006, 04:50 PM

Post #36

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QUOTE (Cray74)

The wobble of Earth's poles have a predictable 26,000-year period. By 7000AD, the new pole star should be Vega, leaving Polaris mis-named (but still closely aligned with the north pole - the wobble isn't big).

The circle of precession covers about 45 degrees of sky, which I'd say is rather big. You can eyeball it yourself... Vega's pretty easy to find this time of year. It's the fifth-brightest star in the sky, and visible all night. It'll be high in the northeast in the evening, and if you have to ask which one, you're not looking at Vega.

Polaris and Vega (which is really several degrees outside the actual circle, but makes up for it through sheer brightness) are almost diametrically opposed on that 26,000 year circle... it'll take roughly 13,000 years for the pole to approach Vega. That'd be the height of the Eighth World. In 5,000 years, beginning of the Seventh World, the pole will be somewhere in Cepheus, just over a third of the way around the arc to Vega. The nearest star of any note looks to be Alfirk, Beta Cephei, which is an otherwise unremarkable star on the dim end of third magnitude.

Back in Earthdawn days, the pole star was Thuban, a bright fourth-magnitude in Draco (which gets to be Alpha Draconis, despite its relative dimness, on the strength of its pole-star history).

I'm guessing that PlatonicPimp meant a shift of the magnetic poles, though.

Witness

Jun 29 2006, 05:40 PM

Post #37

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QUOTE (John Campbell)

I'm guessing that PlatonicPimp meant a shift of the magnetic poles, though.

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure those don't follow any neat cyclic pattern.

Kagetenshi

Jun 29 2006, 06:15 PM

Post #38

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QUOTE (Cray74)

By 7000AD, the new pole star should be Vega, leaving Polaris mis-named

But then what will we do for trolls?

~J

stevebugge

Jun 29 2006, 06:45 PM

Post #39

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QUOTE (Witness)

QUOTE (John Campbell @ Jun 29 2006, 11:50 AM)

I'm guessing that PlatonicPimp meant a shift of the magnetic poles, though.

Maybe, but I'm pretty sure those don't follow any neat cyclic pattern.

I think they do follow a fairly regular pattern actually. Based on analysis of the magnetic alignement of seafloor material moving away from the divergent plate zones (like the mid-atlantic ridge) there are alternating bands of north oriented and south oriented material that correspond to the flipping of the magnetic poles with breife periods of no alignment at all at the boundaries of those bands.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Jun 29 2006, 06:48 PM Post #40
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	Oh my god!!! It's all going to end!!!

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Jun 29 2006, 06:59 PM Post #41
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Those periods of no alignment are actually periods of multiple alignments. During a geomagnetic reversal (when the north and south poles swap places) the magnetic field weakens and fragments, resulting in multiple north/south pairs all over the world, before the field corrects itself into its new alignment. We're actually due for a geomagnetic reversal right about now. http://www.firstscience.com/SITE/ARTICLES/magnet.asp http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/magnetic/about.html http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2152 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal

Witness View Member Profile	Jun 29 2006, 07:45 PM Post #42
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319	Time to buy shares in compass-making businesses!

PlatonicPimp View Member Profile	Jun 30 2006, 02:57 AM Post #43
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320	By pole shift I was refering to the cracked out geological theory that every once in a while the earths crust decides to move about and place the poles (the real poles, not the magnetic ones) somewhere else. I cannot suggest a better treatment of the subject than that in suppressed transmissions by Kenneth Hitte. And I am apparently owned on the whole continental drift thing, though I was thinking of things like the sinking of atlantis as a good enough reason to have some fun moving continents. We also get to raise and lower the water levels as we wish, giving us things like a land bridge between asia and north america. Now, if the Mana cycle is say, linked to the number of sentients on the planet, it might make sense. Take it thusly: while populations are low, there is no magic. As populations rise, magic gradually returns, until it reaches a threshold level. Then we get an awakening. Afterwards, at a high point, the horrors come, and eat everyone. Which makes the population decline, which causes the mana buildup to reverse. Then the magic slowy drains away until it is gone. Then, the population begins to rebuild......

Witness

Jun 30 2006, 08:48 AM

Post #44

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QUOTE (stevebugge)

I think they do follow a fairly regular pattern actually.

Doesn't look like it to me!

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)

Now, if the Mana cycle is say, linked to the number of sentients on the planet, it might make sense. Take it thusly: while populations are low, there is no magic. As populations rise, magic gradually returns, until it reaches a threshold level. Then we get an awakening. Afterwards, at a high point, the horrors come, and eat everyone. Which makes the population decline, which causes the mana buildup to reverse. Then the magic slowy drains away until it is gone. Then, the population begins to rebuild......

World population in 2012: about 7 billion?
In 1802: 1 billion.
Back in 950 AD: 250 million.

This doesn't work for me. I just can't buy the idea that there were, at the end of the 1st and 3rd worlds, 7 billion people in the world just as there was at the end of the 5th.

coolgrafix

Jun 30 2006, 02:19 PM

Post #45

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QUOTE (Witness @ Jun 30 2006, 03:48 AM)

World population in 2012: about 7 billion?
In 1802: 1 billion.
Back in 950 AD: 250 million.

This doesn't work for me. I just can't buy the idea that there were, at the end of the 1st and 3rd worlds, 7 billion people in the world just as there was at the end of the 5th.

The argument that the existance of a mana wave is tied to population doesn't require equal populations in each age. It simply would/could mean that with each world's growing populations the signal strength of the mana wave is also greater, whether positive (even numbered worlds) or negative (odd numbered worlds).

To this it could be argued: "Ah, but what about the Second World (the Age of Dragons) when all hell was breaking loose and being born. Surely the mana level then was AT LEAST as high as in 2070?"

And in response to this it could be argued: "Yes, but the 6th World is just now beginning. Sit back, strap yourself in, and get ready for the most outlandish mana cycle in the history of the world." =)

Just some thoughts.

stevebugge

Jun 30 2006, 05:36 PM

Post #46

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QUOTE (Witness)

QUOTE (stevebugge @ Jun 29 2006, 01:45 PM)

I think they do follow a fairly regular pattern actually.

Doesn't look like it to me!

QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)

Now, if the Mana cycle is say, linked to the number of sentients on the planet, it might make sense. Take it thusly: while populations are low, there is no magic. As populations rise, magic gradually returns, until it reaches a threshold level. Then we get an awakening. Afterwards, at a high point, the horrors come, and eat everyone. Which makes the population decline, which causes the mana buildup to reverse. Then the magic slowy drains away until it is gone. Then, the population begins to rebuild......

World population in 2012: about 7 billion?
In 1802: 1 billion.
Back in 950 AD: 250 million.

This doesn't work for me. I just can't buy the idea that there were, at the end of the 1st and 3rd worlds, 7 billion people in the world just as there was at the end of the 5th.

It does look a bit more random than I remember from my college courses alright. Just to provide a counterpoint to the Wiki (be careful they tend to be somewhat incomplete in a lot of areas) I don't personally subscribe to the Dynamo Theory, I think the evidence supporting the theory that the Earth's Core is made of Heavier elements than the Nickel-Iron Crystal supposed in dynamo theory and that the heat of either fission or radioactive decay is driving the convection currents of the Mantle and generating the Electro-Magnetic fields is a bit more complete than the evidence behind dynamo theory. Neither are proven and Dynamo Theory is still dominant. The reversal triggered by Geologic event theory is a bit hard to support n my opinion, for the simple reason that if true there should be many more reversals than have been detected, for example where is the reversal that should be associated with the Krakatoa Eruption in the 1800's?

As for tying the Mana Cycle to Population or Biomass I'm in agreement with everyone that finds that a bit hard to swallow. I'd be much more inclined to believe that there were many previous manacycles that went unrecorded due to either the lower level of evolution/civilization or because the Horrors had far less opposition and were much more successful in decimating previous societies and cultures.

Cynic project

Jul 1 2006, 04:33 AM

Post #47

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QUOTE (Cray74)

QUOTE (stevenrockwell @ Jun 28 2006, 11:55 AM)

In the real world, sure, continents don't move except at a snail's pace.

And in this fictional world, continents didn't move in the 2nd World or the 4th World (which also had the elves, horrors, and uber-magic). It's unlikely to happen in the 6th World, either.

LA.... The plate around LA went in the wrong direction causing a quake on a scale hat should have killed billions of people. But you know that shadowrun fallows geograpic facts.

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