 skill grouping, another thread |
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 Jun 28 2006, 05:36 PM
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#26
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
There's also Walker/Mechanical Arm Operation and Tracks/Car, but overall your point stands.
Aww, now I feel bad. I was hard-pressed to hit the target once the first time I fired a pistol. Granted I was about nine at the time… ~J |
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Jun 28 2006, 05:50 PM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Sorry, I only checked the table on p. 82, SR3. :) (And read even that wrong. Whatever.)
That will make a huge difference. I can't imagine the average 9-year-old handling, say, a double action revolver with any accuracy because of the stiff trigger alone. Small children need compact, polymer frame single stack .380 ACPs with really light triggers. |
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Jun 28 2006, 06:06 PM
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#28
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
There's also Etiquette/Negotiation/Interrogation/Intimidation/Leadership, and B/R (weapons groups).
Sigged |
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Jun 28 2006, 07:25 PM
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#29
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
What's the problem with SR4's skill groups, exactly? They're just a way of spending points, and getting a bit of a discount for skills that, in theory, have some overlap.
If you're willing to accept "Pistols" or "Negotiation" as being an acceptably precise method of dividing skills, what's the problem here? I've got no personal experience with automatic weapons. I do, however, have a decent amount of experience with weapons that are quite similar... semiautomatic "assault rifles" and carbines. If I wanted to represent that in SR terms (and stretch reality a bit) it wouldn't be too hard to say that I'd bought the Firearms group at 1, and then pushed Pistols and Long Arms to a higher rating, leaving Automatics at 1. Skill groups are meant to represent someone who's got a broad range of experience with a number of related topics having an easier time (that is, paying less BP or karma) of learning things than someone who's only got experience with one aspect of that group. The fact that it results in some characters having *identical* levels of skill across the group is a systemic compromise. And honestly, if it's causing problems for you, don't let people get skill groups; they've got to buy everything on it's own. This may cause problems at chargen, of course... 400 points never really feels like very many. Or, you could do what I do, and let people break skill groups at creation, encouraging them to pick up the basics of a number of different things related to what they're going to specialize in. |
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Jun 28 2006, 07:33 PM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I don't think anyone is saying that skill group are causing problems. The topic is more along the lines of:
Discus (flaming optional). |
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Jun 28 2006, 07:41 PM
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#31
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
OK. SR4 skill groups model the similarities between skills reasonably well: it's less expensive to increase those skills on a point-per-skill-raise basis if you're doing it as part of a group of skills. I allow skill group breakup (and individual advancement) during character creation, and would probably make it so that even when you've got a skill group broken up/unformed, you have the option of dropping the 2.5x cost worth of points in and pushing every skill in the group 1 point, but that's about the only change I'd make. There's enough times when a player is going to look at that and say "these skills are different enough that it'd make more sense for karma costs if I were to push them individually" that the second part would simply be a non-issue for a lot of players.
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Jun 28 2006, 07:47 PM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
The problem with SR4's model isn't the skill groups, it's the lack of links between the skills for defaulting. According to folks a lot more experienced than me, skill in pistols will translate into skill in rifles. Not on a one-for-one basis, but you're better with a rifle than if you'd never practiced with a pistol. The same would hold true for some noncombat skills.
It's not a huge problem, nor even IMO big enough that it needs to be fixed. There are other systems out there that mimic reality better with their skill groups and similar skills rules. Shadowrun doesn't really need that level of detail. And it's a lot better than assuming that "fighting" and "shooting" and "throwing" are all the skills you'll need. :) |
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Jun 28 2006, 07:53 PM
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#33
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
like i've said elsewhere, the ability to use a blowgun because you're good at shooting pistols is at least as retarded as a grand master in one martial art suddenly finding his fighting ability reduced by 90% or more when he switches styles. moreover, skills such as fighting with a knife and fighting with your fists have more in common than they have differences.
heck, if fighting with a knife is, for the sake of 'realism', considered a seperate skill from fighting unarmed, then by all rights defending yourself from knives should be a different skill than defending yourself from unarmed attacks. there are way, way, way bigger differences in defending than there are in attacking. a person who has trained in using his fists will be able to use a knife no problem; a person who has trained to defend only against unarmed attacks, who goes up against a knife-wielding opponent, is going to be not-slightly at a loss because a lot of his defensive moves will require major adjustments. they'll be better off than a person who hasn't trained at all, sure, but there's still a big difference there. |
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Jun 28 2006, 08:57 PM
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#34
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
It does make things easier, because each group will have its own specific rules. The more groups you have, the more rules you need to apply. For example, in SR3, you can use certain flails to make entangling attacks, requiring a special exception. Polearms need special case rules, especially when concerning dwarves and trolls. And so on, and so forth. If you want a truly unified and easy-to-run system, you need to have as few exceptions as possible.
If someone's really trained in Tae Bo, but hasn't studied any other art, then his overall skill level is going to be very low. You're under the mistaken impression that because a person has studied one art extensively, that will make him into a good fighter. The entire UFC conclusively disproves this theory. In Savage Worlds, if you want to have a d10 in Shooting, then you represent that by having trained extensively in every firearm known to man, as well as having gained familiarity in other ranged weapons. Aim is at least partly a matter of natural talent and instinct as well; and in a pulpy game like SW, the ability to say: "No, I've never used a Chinese throwing dart before..." ssSSHHTHUNK! "But it doesn't seem to be too difficult." is just part of the overall atmosphere.
Then he buys edges in his primary field, giving him better skill there. He can still defend himself well if he has a good general Fighting skill, he's just a lot better with his primary weapon. If you're a really good epee fighter, you're not going to be nearly as good with a saber, but you won't be totally incompetent either.
12. :P
Honestly, the first time I fired a rifle, I had a pretty crappy spread. Then I picked up a pistol, and had the exact same crappy spread. I got a little better at pistols, then tried a rifle again; I had the exact same slightly-better spread. I have stayed consistently equal in my firearms skills. Equally lousy, that is. 8)
The concept isn't bad, but the cap leaves a lot to be desired. It's impossible to have someone who's noticeably above average in all firearms, no matter how extensively he might have trained. In fact, you are actually penalized in effectiveness, since you can't have any of the skills over 4, or take a specialization. |
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Jun 28 2006, 09:08 PM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
But if you want a system where weapons can do what they're designed to do (entangle to use your example) you need exceptions. If someone in a unified system is capable of grapplign via whatever method, you'll need grappling rules. That doesn't change based on the number of subgroups of combat skills.
The entire UFC also operates under quite a few rules that don't happen in an actual fight. I'm by no means saying that someone trained in boxing since birth (d10+2) should be world class with fencing (d10), but Savage Worlds rules do.
Including weapons that don't act like firearms and you've never even heard of. Hence the problem.
You misunderstand. He doesn't want any combat edges at all. He doesn't want to be able to use an epee or saber, but because he bought fighting skill he does know how to use them.
Off by quite a large margin, but thank you for thinking I'm so young at heart ol' fella.
Close. It's impossible to start with someone noticably above average in all firearms, but you can certainly get them there with karma. |
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Jun 28 2006, 09:08 PM
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#36
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
The cap only exists at character creation. The lack of specialization is a pain in the ass.
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Jun 28 2006, 09:22 PM
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#37
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that assumes that someone can get to d10 fightin', having only done boxing training and fighting unarmed opponents, ever. |
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Jun 28 2006, 10:12 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
There are roleplaying and/or training limits in the rules? If so, that makes more sense to me.
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Jun 28 2006, 10:25 PM
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#39
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Good gawd... just read all of this. Anyway, I'm running a Savage Worlds game (Necessary Evil) this weekend...
In character creation, there is an initial cap to the skill level, you can't raise it higher than the related attribute level. is that what you're asking? Also you can only raise your skill level through the raises only due to specific circumstances (basically hitting 5 xp, at every 20 points you go to new level, but every five xp you have the option to raise an attribute, a skill level, gain a new edge). Not sure if there's any other limits specifically in the rules but I don't think so. That's probalby more up to the GM unless I totally missed that section in the rules. |
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Jun 28 2006, 10:40 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
I was going to defend myself agains this, but if all you can do is come in attack me, that just means you have nothing to offer and more then likely never have fired a weapon in your life. |
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Jun 28 2006, 11:21 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Does that include me too?
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Jun 28 2006, 11:47 PM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Didnt see your post till after I replied. So far I havent a reason to disblieve you have fired a gun before, though I do know a guy that can spout off stuff about the military and guns like you and has never served, so its not beyond beliefe that you are faking it. But I wont say that, because you seem to be a forth right person so far. Point I was making is I guess I did suck with pistols, but at 12 with a small hand and stubby fingers .38 clip feed pistol was a bit big for my hands. Hell at 17 a colt 45 APC was still big for my hands. But now Im much better, still not as good with a pistol as I am with a rifle or shotgun. But then again I dont shoot pistols all that often. Most of my friends are hunters, not target shooters or cops anymore. There has been a good or at least reasonible comprimise to our discussng with groupings adn partial skills to represent comparitive weapons being learned. So why not concentrate on that? My position has been stated. EDIT: ANd you have contributed to the discussion, you just happened to tack on at the end of a post you agreed with the other guy. mmu1 just stepped in with an insult, and well that means I have no respect for him, he didnt add anything, and I have no reason to believe hes ever touched a gun, real or plastic disk gun. |
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Jun 28 2006, 11:55 PM
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#43
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I don't understand what's so hard about saying that if your skills wash over into nearby areas, you should represent that by having a point or two of skill in that area. Hell, SR4 does a decent job of doing that for you by letting you default to attributes. SR3's defaulting wasn't too shabby either.
Character sheets are abstractions of something that theoretically exists. If your character's familiarity with rifles allows him to shoot handguns alright, then give him a low pistol skill and a decent rifle skill to reflect that. On the other hand, if you're one of those people who can shoot rifles fine but can't hit a damn thing with a handgun because of how they handle, how they fit, how they recoil, and how short the sight radius is, you could easily have a rifle skill and shoot pistols based solely on Agility-1. |
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Jun 29 2006, 12:19 AM
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#44
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Frag-o Delux: If you wish, I'm sure I can prove to you I served 9 months in the FDF and fired the weapons I mentioned (along with the 66 KES 88/LAW 72 practice rockets, 7.62x54mmR TaKi 85 sniper rifle, and obviously the 7.62x39mm RK 62 AR) over PMs.
What that says to me is that the system allows for realistic levels of skill for all characters, it's just the players' (or GM's) responsibility to make them so if they wish to. In general I take "realistic rules" to mean that the system enforces realism in such things. Sure you could buy all the firearms skills to medium-high levels while maxing out one or two, thus creating a realistically balanced skill set for your character. But, because of the inherent need for some min/maxing at character generation, and in SR3's case the disconnect between the skill point buy and the Karma system, you are in fact encouraged not to do that. Thus there ends up being far more strictly specialized criminal operators running the shadows of the 6th world than there should logically be. At the very least, then, then system should encourage realistic character builds -- which SR4's skill group system may do better than SR3 does. However, enforcing realism through the rules might be simpler, and since I don't particularly hunger for unrealism that's the more logical route for me. Hence my interest in the "skill group at a fixed rate of the highest skill within the group" rule. |
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Jun 29 2006, 12:44 AM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
I told you I believed you. I have been around a long time, mostly lurking of late. You and raygun debating guns and such has made me confident in your knowledge. But if you have pics or something of you shooting a missile Id be glad to check them out. :) I just dont like people stepping in and insulting other people for no other reason then being an ass and not add anything. What can I say, Im not perfect at all things I try, thats why I practice at it. Pistols I mean. |
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Jun 29 2006, 12:50 AM
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#46
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I disagree. You have: Firearms - Pistols/SMGs/Rifles/ARs/Shotguns/Some special weapons (like lasers and suitcase guns) Big firearms - Heavy weapons/gunnery/launch weapons Projectile weapons - Projectile weapons/thrown and stupid others no one ever uses Melee - Edged weapons/clubs/polearms/whips/debatably unarmed plus odds and ends weapons Fisticuffs - All martial arts, unarmed, cyber-weapon combat, improvised melee combat Face skills - etiquette (all specialties could be broken out again, ala SR2 and made into their own area, or kept together and stuck with face skills)/negotiation/interrogation/intimidation Physical skills - Athletics/diving/stealth/dodge (if applicable) Magic skills - aura reading/sorcery/conjuring Smart person skills - computer/electronics/computers b/r/electronics b/r Driving - bikes/cars/hovercraft Sailing - motorboat/ship/sailboat/submarine Flying - winged/rotor/vector thrust/LTA craft B/R skills - all b/r skills excepting computers, electronics and odds and ends Optional - The excellent SR4 thief skills disguise/infiltration/palming/shadowing The only odds and ends left are demolitions, which only n00bs and unusual characters take, and biotech. The SR2/3 defaulting rules are great for letting someone with skill in pistols still be able to use a rifle (although obviously not as well), however does not replicate the fact that much of the knowledge acquired in learning how to use a pistol is the same knowledge required to use a rifle - there is no need to learn the same stuff twice. So SR2/3's only real failure is in upgrading related skills (I think SR4 has a neat mechanic with skill groups, but goes the wrong way. I don't know how it is physically possible to learn how to use ALL pistols without learning anything about how to use rifles. Skill groups should be required or somehow automatic at their lowest levels.) |
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Jun 29 2006, 12:58 AM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Aw, relax a bit... I wasn't insulting you, I was just making fun of what I considered a really bad example (and a poor argument against grouping skills). Hence the :P If I was insulting you, it'd have been :S |
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Jun 29 2006, 01:06 AM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I meant "skill groups" as in the defaulting skill groupings in canon SR3. The complete list of groups on the table on page 82 of SR3 is:
Edged/Clubs/Polearms (+ B/Rs) Cyber-implant/Unarmed (+B/Rs) Pistols/SMGs/Rifles/ARs/Shotguns (+B/Rs) Gunnery/Launch Weapons (+B/Rs) Computer/Electronics (+B/Rs) Interrogation/Intimidation Motorboat/Ship (+B/Rs) Winged/Rotor/Lighter-Than-Air Aircraft (+B/Rs) The Companion and Rigger 3 add a few, but the rest are individual skills that do not allow for defaulting. With only a few exceptions, I would not suggest grouping the other skills, including many you mentioned, on the same level as I think small arms should be grouped together. Perhaps include two levels of groups, tight (with whole group at 2/3 the highest skill) and loose (1/3 the highest skill), unless that's getting into the Too Complex territory again. |
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Jun 29 2006, 01:42 AM
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#49
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
I figured you were, thats why I didnt insult you back. And I was only using myself as an exmple because Im not going to make things up to prove my point. I havent seen many other people just begin to use pistols. Everyone I went shooting with were in the military for years so had years of practice with all those weapons. EDIT: And we rarely went to public gun ranges, we usually shot on private property with only really close friends and family. Not all the weapons we had werent exactally legal. My favorite memory of those days was when my fathers friend george let me shoot his full auto AK. I had to fill clips all day to get the chance to shoot it. The guy had ammo case after ammo case of 30 and 45 round clips and we shot all day. I only got a chance to shoot it as the sun was setting and we were packing up to go home. If his wife hadnt needed his help putting something in the bed of his truck I wouldnt have had the chance to hold the trigger down for about 10 rounds. :) I guess Im taking thinks too seriously lately anyway, its been a rough couple days. I think its a fine example. I could use a rifle perfectly fine, my pistol abilities were shoddy at best, I couldnt hit shit with a blow gun and I was almost comparable with my bow to my rifle. I do agree there is a limited cross training factor to consider with like weapons. But only at the rudimentory level. Sure most martial art are close in formand movement, but a guy with 20 yellow belts will still not be a competition for a guy with 1 or 2 black belts. I would like to see a group skill purchase where you buy the group to a certain level then have to increase one skill over the rest adn then you can increase the other skills at will. Sort of like a linked attribute thing, you get a discount ont he lower level skills, till you meet or beat the higher level skill. For instance, small arms would be smgs, carbine and rifles. You could get up to 3 in all 3 skills for a set price, but then the character may decide hes a carbine man, runs that skill to 6 using standard skills. Later he decides his rifles could use some work, spending a discounted amount of karma till he reaches 5 in rifles, then a standard price for 6 in rifles and so if he continues to beat the carbines skill say up to 8. But a few months later he figures hes better off with SMGs, so hell get a discounted cost till he reaches 8. Same with his carbines till it matches the higher level skill in the group. Also like pointed out earlier, the skill that covers everything promotes pulpy I can do anything attitudes, where SRs skills promote the, shit I messed up *splat* attitude in the game. For SR I like the shit I messed up *splat* feel, its suppose to be a depressing setting. If I was brought into a SW game I wouldnt care about the pulpy i can do anything skills, because thats probablt how the game was meant to be played. I just wouldnt liek to see SR with that style of skills, nor would I bet anyone playing SW having SR skills put on them. |
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Jun 29 2006, 01:58 AM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If carbines are separated from SMGs and ARs, then you definitely want separate skills for revolvers, semi-automatic pistols and machine pistols, for firing shot and slug from shotguns, and for short range, long range and anti-material rifles. Not to mention the chopping up of the Biotech skill required to get to the same level of discreteness. |
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