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 Knockback Optional rule, Why I hate it. |
 Jun 29 2006, 03:21 AM
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#26
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 96 Joined: 13-April 06 Member No.: 8,459  |
I see :rotfl: |
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Jun 29 2006, 03:25 AM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i don't like the tone of your complaining, you complainer! shape up!!! (had to complain about something ;) ) |
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Jun 29 2006, 01:38 PM
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#28
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,002 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Canada Member No.: 8,494 |
In one of the latest episodes of MythBusters (airs on Discovery) they proved that you can not be knocked back by any weapon. Even the 50cal they shot only caused the pig target (to represent a human) to just fall down. A shotgun couldn't even knock the pig off the hook. As for crumpling under the pain, that would happen from your wounds more quickly then the pain from the bullet.
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Jun 29 2006, 04:33 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
The benefit of the knockdown rule as written is its ease of application. No extra rolls or complex equations, just a quick number to check that adds another little complication and obstacle in combat. Is it realistic? Almost certainly not. But it's better than, for example, having to make regular "pain resistance" checks based on your current level of injury.
Mostly, however, it's just a question of style. (My style, for example, might well involve one of the many mooks getting shot and flying back off a ledge as a result, simply because that's the sort of imagery I like.) |
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Jun 29 2006, 04:49 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
That's a bit broad. No modern, hand-held firearm, though, will knock back a well-balanced adult target purely through the momentum of the bullet. I'll accept that. If you want to physically knock people backwards, you pretty much need to be in melee. Or use a massive, low-speed projectile...you know, like a cannonball :)
I don't think I followed what you were trying to say, there. Could you rephrase? |
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Jun 29 2006, 04:56 PM
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#31
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I would further amend that to "no production small arm can knock back a balanced adult human through purely physical means". Handheld recoilless weapons, like LAWs, can get close to or indeed well beyond "cannonball" performance levels, and then there are freak weapons like the 76mm HIWS. Of course, when directly hit by such weapons, being knocked back is a non-issue, because a large portion of your mass is busy smearing itself all over the place. |
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Jun 29 2006, 09:43 PM
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#32
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
so, by the time something can lift you of your feet, it will have enough energy in it to basicly take you apart, bone by bone?
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Jun 29 2006, 09:51 PM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
With firearms, definitely. It will usually also be a massive explosive projectile.
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Jun 30 2006, 12:51 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,002 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Canada Member No.: 8,494 |
I think using the knockback rules to "drop from the pain" is incorrect as you are already (with the condition monitor) going to have the effects of pain on the body. There is nothing in the knockback rules that add to the current system. |
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Jun 30 2006, 01:19 PM
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#35
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Target Group: Members Posts: 32 Joined: 6-April 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,431 |
What about knockback from explosive and EX-explosive rounds. Surely there is concussive forces involved as the shell detonates on the target sufficient to knock someone back.
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Jun 30 2006, 02:10 PM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If the projectile in question is much larger than .50 BMG bullets or shotgun slugs, it may be sufficient to push someone off-balance. Of course, at that point the momentum of the projectile itself becomes quite considerable. With handguns and nearly all rifles, though, the actual amount of explosive would be minute. For example, the Mk 211 Mod 0 .50 BMG pyrotechnically initiated explosive round has a whopping 13 grains (less than 1 gram) of Composition A-4 in it. You can get more *bang* out of an M-80.
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Jun 30 2006, 02:38 PM
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#37
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716 |
This thread has caused two thoughts to form in my head.
#1. The image i see when reading about this discussion is that bank robbery where those two crazy dudes were dressed up in full body armor and had armor pierceing automatic weapons and had that huge shoot out with the cops. They never even got dropped to their knee's. #2. How fast do spells travel. Why arent there any magic spells that have -AV modifiers. Surely i can focus my magic into the size of a pinprick and completely bypass armor. Were talking physical spells here, obviously you dont need this with mana spells. Anybody who brings up realism in arguments in games should be slapped repeatedly. Hello, you just got your left arm dissolved by an acid spell and a dragon is munching on your leg and your worried about whether or not you would actually fall over or get knocked back by a bullet ?? I like the reply some people said about it just making their gaming experience more fun. Thats what its suppose to be about. its not suppose to be a perfect mirror of the real world. If you throw on a bath robe and run outside and try to cut your car in half with your battery operated light saber and it breaks would you be mad?? Then why get mad over making the bad guys fall over or go flying after being shot sometimes?? |
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Jun 30 2006, 02:41 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You hate suspension of disbelief? |
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Jun 30 2006, 03:24 PM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
There's long term effects of damage (penalties based on where you're at in the condition monitor) and there are the immediate (and usually stronger) effects of damage (falling down). As an experiment, stab yourself in the leg while standing up. If you do it hard enough or unexpectedly enough the pain and shock will probably knock you on your ass. After a moment or two stand up. It'll still hurt like hell, but as long as you didn't do too much actual damage you'll be able to walk.
For quite a lot of people higher realism equals more fun. Your statement is correct, but your implementation is personal opinion on what makes a game fun. |
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Jun 30 2006, 03:55 PM
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#40
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I like that. Stab yourself in the leg unexpectedly. I'll try that, just as soon as I forget I'm supposed to be doing it. |
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Jun 30 2006, 04:02 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It's pretty easy to do, it just takes a little engenuity while building your self-stabber machine. Or a really sick and twisted bastard of a friend to help you out. :)
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Jun 30 2006, 04:21 PM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
You know, I love Mythbusters, but that episode mentioned before always bothered me.
They tested the gun-knockback theory by hanging a pig on a chain. If human beings were held on a chain we would never fall either, we would swing....which the pig did do. I never felt that episode was good except for the fact thatI got to watch them shoot up a pig carcass. Now, if they could have balanced the pig off of the ground, I'm sure it would have fallen. That still wouldn't be accurate, but better in my mind. |
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Jun 30 2006, 04:25 PM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Uhh, why? It's a 4-legged, sturdy mammal with a low center of gravity. When firearms lack the ability to push humans off-balance, they will absolutely suck at "pig tipping". |
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Jun 30 2006, 04:56 PM
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#44
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
they did a retake, that time with buster (their crash test dummy) in a bulletresistent vest...
still, same result, only the shotgun was able to get him to fall of the hook. think of the knockdown this way: whats the first thing you do when you touch something hot and didnt expect it? the built in human reaction to pain is to try and get away from it. so its fully possible to how "ouch!" followed by "oh shit!" and then fall over. or atleast trip or similary end up in a less then optimal stance that you need to recover from... given that the SR combat system do not have any modifiers for being between standing and prone, prone is the next best thing to simulate that effect... oh and i belive one the bankrobbers that abbadon talks about got knocked over and failed to get up because the armor was restricting his ability to move. how he got knocked over i dont recall... |
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Jun 30 2006, 05:07 PM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
North Hollywood Bank Robber #2 (Emil Dechebal Matasareanu) got shot repeatedly in the feet and legs with assault rifles. When he was overtaken by the SWAT officers, he had sustained 29 penetrating injuries; I imagine he was not standing at that time. Robber #1 was, I believe, standing when he shot himself in the head and a police round severed his spine. |
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Jun 30 2006, 05:30 PM
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#46
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ah, thanks for the update. i only have some vague memorys of some low quality helicopter camera shots with one guy on his back...
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Jun 30 2006, 06:42 PM
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#47
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Just a nitpick/clarification/braindribble: What made the rifles being used in the LA Bank of America robbery go through body armor was their caliber, not the ammunition they were loading specifically being designed to defeat body armor. The vests worn by the vast majority of police officers are intended to stop pistol rounds, and are usually designed to be worn beneath a uniform and for an entire shift at a time... it's usually Class 3A or lighter. As most rifle ammunition is smaller caliber and travelling at significantly higher velocities than pistol ammunition, it's capable of penetrating those types of body armor without really requiring special ammunition to do so, because the body armor isn't built to stop it in the first place. Most hunting, assault, and longer-range target rifles will go through Class 3A armor. The armor being worn by the robbers was also Class 3A, and I've read reports that say they used cut-up vests to protect their arms and legs in addition to their torsos. However, since the weapons they were being engaged with were mostly pistols and shotguns, their armor was able to protect them for most of the firefight, until the rifle-armed SWAT members arrived. |
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Jun 30 2006, 07:37 PM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
My point was basically that human beings are balanced on two legs from the ground, we are not hanging off of a hook like a punching bag. If a punching bag was placed on the ground and unched it would fall over, thats why they are put on hooks. Thats kind of what I am getting at. |
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Jun 30 2006, 07:59 PM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm not saying testing that stuff on a hanging pig carcass is a reasonable model, but fortunately in this case the results mesh with reality and the conclusions were correct.
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Jun 30 2006, 09:04 PM
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#50
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
Now maybe my understanding of the physics here is way off, but I think that the punch actually transfers more energy than a bullet. The bullet starts with more kinetic energy no question, however the bullet also hits the body, goes through, and finishes with a lot more energy too. Whereas a fist has greater mass then a bullet, but much lower velocity and therefore lower kinetic energy, fists don't usually travel through a body and so pretty much come to a stop when they hit one. Hence if Force = Mass x Acceleration and (to make math easy these aren't even close to real numbers I'm sure) you have a 1g Bullet moving at 500m/s when it hits the body and it exits at 300m/s it has transferred about .2 Newtons of force However a 1kg Troll Fist Beginning at 5m/s and ending at 0m/s has transferred 5 Newtons of force. Again while the numbers aren't accurate that's what I believe the principle at work is, hence I'd throw my vote for: Knockdown tests make much more sense for melee combat than for procjectiles, and if you do use knockdown for projectiles it's more likely to be as a result of shock or pain than actual tranfer of physical energy.
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