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> Dikote, How to deal with in SR4
Mister Juan
post Jun 28 2006, 08:57 PM
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I did a search on the boards, because I was convinced someone had already converted Dikote to SR4 rules... but I couldn't find anything.

Quite frankly, I am rather unsure on how to handle dikote weapons in SR4. If someone has an idea (or if the whole thing was already done but I couldn't find it), please speak up ;)

Thanks a bunch.
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James McMurray
post Jun 28 2006, 09:00 PM
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+1 DV -1AP seems about right to me.
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stevebugge
post Jun 28 2006, 09:01 PM
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I'm not sure if it's been done or not. It should certainly improve a weapon's AP value and Damage Value, the question is how much? Also in Shadowtech the flavor text mentioned that Dikote was conductive so it should be incompatible with the "noncondutive" option for armor in my opinion.
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Geekkake
post Jun 28 2006, 09:02 PM
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NOOOOOOOOOOOO GOD NOOOOOOO

Please, just let me have this nice, quiet time before Dikote is reintroduced in Arsenal.
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Kyoto Kid
post Jun 28 2006, 09:05 PM
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...ooops sorry (cover your ears Geekkake)

I would say on edged weapons (including bladed polearms) it would augment the AP factor by an additional -1.

As to blunt weapons I never really could see that it would give an advantage though it did up the damage code in SR3. Maybe adding +1 to the item's DV would work. Of course it would have to be made of material which could withstand the temperatures used in the treatment process (like say a steel pipe or titanium staff)

I never really bought the idea of treating armour (save for maybe Military Grade) for the same reason above, the high temperatures involved in the process.
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James McMurray
post Jun 28 2006, 09:10 PM
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Oops! I forgot to specify. My +1DV / -1 AP is meant for edged weapons only.
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Moon-Hawk
post Jun 28 2006, 09:12 PM
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I like Dikote, but I think it's been historically overpowered. I think +1DV/-1AP is more than enough of a bonus. I'd lean more toward something like -2AP, myself.
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Lagomorph
post Jun 28 2006, 09:17 PM
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It should add +15dv and make anything = to hardened vehicle armor because it is so COOOL!

Ahem, In actuality, I was glad to see it left out of 4th ed because it's applications didn't make a whole lot of sense, but +1dv -1 AP sounds reasonable.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jun 28 2006, 09:19 PM
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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
I never really bought the idea of treating armour (save for maybe Military Grade) for the same reason above, the high temperatures involved in the process.

It was quite clearly stated in M&M that cloth, plastic, etc. cannot stand the temperature required to make the special diamond molecules angry enough to increase the damage caused by any coated object, and only objects made of ceramics and certain metals can be Dikoted. That means flexible body armor is right out.

Anyhow, I completely agree with Geekkake. Unfortunately it's pretty much guaranteed to make a reappearance, but right now things are good.
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HappyDaze
post Jun 28 2006, 09:50 PM
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I can understand increased AP on an edged or piercing weapon, but why an increase in DV? The weapon shouldn't actually hit any harder. Likewise, for blunt weapons there shouldn't really be any offensive effect (defensively the weapon may be slightly harder to break, but if it's just a "candy-coating" then the underlying material will still fail at about the same time it normally would - it should help hold an edge longer though).
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Mister Juan
post Jun 28 2006, 10:06 PM
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So the general consensus would be something like:
+1DV/-1AP
or
-2AP

Thanks a bunch guys :D
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James McMurray
post Jun 28 2006, 10:09 PM
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If it's better at cutting through steel it's probably better at cutting through less dense materials like bone and sinew.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jun 28 2006, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
If it's better at cutting through steel it's probably better at cutting through less dense materials like bone and sinew.

Actually, no. Hardened steel is already way harder than bone or sinew, and you can make it just as sharp, and as such will cut through an unmodified human body with equal ease. Unless, of course, you assume that the steel edges are always somewhat deformed (dented, chipped, etc.) and that the extremely thin angry diamond film somehow makes the blade immune to such deformation.
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stevebugge
post Jun 28 2006, 10:21 PM
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I've always found Dikote to be much better as a tool enhancement, my all time favorite being Dikoted Bolt Cutters.
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James McMurray
post Jun 28 2006, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Unless, of course, you assume that the steel edges are always somewhat deformed (dented, chipped, etc.) and that the extremely thin angry diamond film somehow makes the blade immune to such deformation.

This is shadowrun. Nothing is perfect, including edges on weapons. :-)
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jun 28 2006, 10:32 PM
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Except when they're Dikoted?
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mfb
post Jun 28 2006, 10:40 PM
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i've always assumed that when you dikote a blade's edge, you first sharpen the edge with a laser, or some other means by which you can hone the metal to an edge so fine as to normally be useless (because it will chip the first time it smacks into something hard). you then lay the dikote on overtop of that.
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James McMurray
post Jun 28 2006, 10:49 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Except when they're Dikoted?

Nah, Dikote blades are imperfect too, they're just not a imperfect. ;)

mfb's response works alot better than mine. :)
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jun 28 2006, 10:55 PM
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Swordcraft isn't my strongest suit, but AFAICT when a sword is first sharpened, there is no reason not to make it "inifinitely" sharp, ie. completely remove the bevel and make the cutting edge as thin as whatever sharpening method you're using allows. I doubt a thin diamond film would bestow enough strength to the blade to allow a significantly more acute final sharpening angle (which is the main factor when considering the possibility of denting and chipping). If the sword is not of good quality or it has been banged against hard objects beforehand, then that might give a slight advantage to the blade with the angry diamonds on it, but otherwise a Dikoted sword would not cut more efficiently.

It's much easier to digest an increased damage if, instead of a thin diamond film, it's some sort of treatment of the materials,probably during the original manufacturing of the item, that greatly increases its hardness and strength overall.
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James McMurray
post Jun 28 2006, 11:00 PM
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He's not saying you make the sword sharper than normal, just that it will stay that sharp instead of being blunted the moment it strikes something.

I ain't saying it works, but Dikote is something I've never tried to explain with RL science. Huge chunks of most games fall apart when you try that, so why bother? :)
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jun 28 2006, 11:11 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
[...] blunted the moment it strikes something.

If the first thing you strike with your 70 RC edge is an armor steel plate, then sure it gets blunted -- regardless of whether its got diamond on top or not. If, on the other hand, it's flexible body armor fibers, flesh and bone, you can keep going for quite a while before your cutting ability is significantly diminished, with or without Dikote.

QUOTE (James McMurray)
I ain't saying it works, but Dikote is something I've never tried to explain with RL science. Huge chunks of most games fall apart when you try that, so why bother? :)

I have no problems with that approach. I'm just discussing what the effects would realistically be, because apparently there are some in this thread that are interested in that aspect.
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Red
post Jun 28 2006, 11:18 PM
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Wasn't Dikote introduced as an in-game stopgap to address the fact that melee weapons weren't lethal enough? Sort of like the introduction of IPE grenades? If the SR designers believe they've got melee damage right, there may be no reason to reintroduce dikote at all.
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James McMurray
post Jun 28 2006, 11:19 PM
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There's no reason to introduce it except for historical continuity. There will be a lot of upset folks out there if it doesn't appear.
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Kyoto Kid
post Jun 29 2006, 01:28 AM
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QUOTE (stevebugge)
I've always found Dikote to be much better as a tool enhancement, my all time favorite being Dikoted Bolt Cutters.

...or a dikoted chainsaw chain.

[Note: only availble in Texas and Adams County Wis.]
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NightmareX
post Jun 29 2006, 09:43 AM
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QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
[Note: only availble in Texas and Adams County Wis.]

Ahh, so you know of the hell that is Adams county. ;) Word of mouth or (shudder) personal experience?
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